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Old 03-25-2014, 08:09 AM
 
6,777 posts, read 2,491,804 times
Reputation: 3648

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Quote:
Originally Posted by no1brownsfan View Post
I assume that in calling it a whacko philosophy you're being sarcastic?
Entirely.

I've always found it rather odd that the primary reason both liberal and conservative alike think libertarians are nuts is over one or two areas of big government tyranny they simply must cling to else the world crack in half and plummet into the Sun. For conservatives, it's morality laws and the "best defense = good offense" foreign policy, and for liberals it's typically some animals are more equal than others class warfare meant to punish the successful for their sin of being successful. And because libertarians deny them equally, given the required violations of individual rights inherent in their respective tyrannies, apparently, that makes us whackos.

Conservatives believe as I do about denying the liberal stance that rich people should be punished for being rich, but I am whacko because I think gays marrying is no big deal and wars of aggression != defense. Liberals believe as I do that wars of aggression are foolish, but I am whacko because I think economic liberty is the first and foremost application of personal property rights and should not be violated, even in the name of something as noble sounding as "social justice."

Essentially, 98% (given best election results ever for libertarians) of the populace think an individual citizen is incapable of guiding their own life successfully, and we must have masters who command various aspects of our lives for the good of the collective, and it is whacko/insane/batcrap crazy to think otherwise.

10 years of Internet forums later, I've had every imaginable attack against libertarianism thrown at me, and not one has done anything other than make me more sure of myself.
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:24 AM
 
Location: A great city, by a Great Lake!
15,908 posts, read 10,045,380 times
Reputation: 7456
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Entirely.

I've always found it rather odd that the primary reason both liberal and conservative alike think libertarians are nuts is over one or two areas of big government tyranny they simply must cling to else the world crack in half and plummet into the Sun. For conservatives, it's morality laws and the "best defense = good offense" foreign policy, and for liberals it's typically some animals are more equal than others class warfare meant to punish the successful for their sin of being successful. And because libertarians deny them equally, given the required violations of individual rights inherent in their respective tyrannies, apparently, that makes us whackos.

Conservatives believe as I do about denying the liberal stance that rich people should be punished for being rich, but I am whacko because I think gays marrying is no big deal and wars of aggression != defense. Liberals believe as I do that wars of aggression are foolish, but I am whacko because I think economic liberty is the first and foremost application of personal property rights and should not be violated, even in the name of something as noble sounding as "social justice."

Essentially, 98% (given best election results ever for libertarians) of the populace think an individual citizen is incapable of guiding their own life successfully, and we must have masters who command various aspects of our lives for the good of the collective, and it is whacko/insane/batcrap crazy to think otherwise.

10 years of Internet forums later, I've had every imaginable attack against libertarianism thrown at me, and not one has done anything other than make me more sure of myself.

Sounds like you and I are on the same page here.
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Old 03-25-2014, 01:56 PM
 
3,537 posts, read 2,298,013 times
Reputation: 1023
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Entirely.

I've always found it rather odd that the primary reason both liberal and conservative alike think libertarians are nuts is over one or two areas of big government tyranny they simply must cling to else the world crack in half and plummet into the Sun. For conservatives, it's morality laws and the "best defense = good offense" foreign policy, and for liberals it's typically some animals are more equal than others class warfare meant to punish the successful for their sin of being successful. And because libertarians deny them equally, given the required violations of individual rights inherent in their respective tyrannies, apparently, that makes us whackos.

Conservatives believe as I do about denying the liberal stance that rich people should be punished for being rich, but I am whacko because I think gays marrying is no big deal and wars of aggression != defense. Liberals believe as I do that wars of aggression are foolish, but I am whacko because I think economic liberty is the first and foremost application of personal property rights and should not be violated, even in the name of something as noble sounding as "social justice."

Essentially, 98% (given best election results ever for libertarians) of the populace think an individual citizen is incapable of guiding their own life successfully, and we must have masters who command various aspects of our lives for the good of the collective, and it is whacko/insane/batcrap crazy to think otherwise.

10 years of Internet forums later, I've had every imaginable attack against libertarianism thrown at me, and not one has done anything other than make me more sure of myself.
Well put. There are only a select few who have the gumption to take liberty and autonomy by the horns and enjoy all the aspects both would bring to a society.
Government should rarely be authoritarian and never plutocratical in nature.
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Old 03-25-2014, 02:12 PM
 
6,777 posts, read 2,491,804 times
Reputation: 3648
I made the mistake of reading Rothbard's Libertarian Manifesto and Locke's Two Treatises in my 20s. Nothing in all the years since has convinced me that either was anything other than correct.

At some point, I'm sure we'll be treated to straw men concerning roads, schools, FDA safety on food, etc as proof that tyranny works and without all the tyranny, we wouldn't have the tyrannies we need to take our next breath successfully, blah blah.

Hopefully we'll get regaled with a sermon, say in the case of the FDA/EPA, about how government who takes your money by force and can do whatever they wish without any fear of your reprisal is far more trustworthy in regards to your safety and well being than is the company that makes/sells food and must provide you a satisfactory product in order to persuade you to continue giving them your money. That particular oxymoron has always been one of my personal favorites.

Trust in the government might be the most misplaced, illogical thought process in the history of civilization.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:54 PM
 
854 posts, read 1,105,132 times
Reputation: 961
I'm not saying government isn't inefficient and even tyrannical sometimes, I just think the idea that without government we'd suddenly live in a more prosperous world thinks to the burden taken off poor corporations is ridiculous. No what would happen is the biggest companies would likely merge together to protect their own interest and profits and you'd essentially have a fascist military dictatorship, since the military is the only part of the government the libertarians respect.

Governments are not great, but they're a lesser evil to complete market domination.
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Old 03-25-2014, 07:59 PM
 
25,059 posts, read 23,093,754 times
Reputation: 11618
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
I see where it is bad grammar and sentence structure.

The only real difference is that neoliberals unlike libertarians tend to support military interventionism
The only real difference is, neoliberals unlike libertarians, tend to support military interventionism.


Carry on.
"The only real difference is that neoliberals unlike libertarians tend to support military interventionism" wrong
"The only real difference is, neoliberals unlike libertarians, tend to support military interventionism." wrong
--------------

The only difference is that neoliberals, unlike libertarians, tend to support military interventionism. correct
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Old 03-25-2014, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,225,380 times
Reputation: 7950
WTF is a neo liberal? I've been trying to get those who use the term 'neo conservative' to give me a definition for years without success. Now I suppose we are going to further muddy the waters with 'neo liberal.'

If you use words that have no definition, you cannot possibly know what you're talking about. Might as well just emit a hum while strumming your lips with your finger tips.
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:05 PM
 
1,634 posts, read 1,017,820 times
Reputation: 341
Libertarianism is "economic terrorism"

That is RICH, no pun intended.

Regulations and centralization are all facets of socialism which cause market distortions. Leaving monetary policy to a cartel....what is more terroristic than that?
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:07 PM
 
Location: Chicago
3,395 posts, read 3,723,364 times
Reputation: 7795
Quote:
Originally Posted by spicymeatball View Post
Both basically say more markets and corporations, less government and sovereignty. The only real difference is that neoliberals unlike libertarians tend to support military interventionism and libertarians unlike neolibs oppose any sort of safety net.

Overall the ideas they promote they promote are the same, like trickle down economics, the unemployed/poor just needing to pick themselves up and get to work, the naive belief that trade makes war impossible, and glorification of big business especially the tech industry. Libertarianism is just an extreme form of neoliberalism basically.

As much as I dislike neoliberals they're far better and their ideology is much saner than libertarians. They still accept the necessity of government, and many if not most believe there should be social security programs and support for people who can't work. Libertarians on the other hand believe the government's only duty is to guard the border and punish criminals, and some would even say those duties should be privatized. In fact they partially have been already!

Like social democrats and moderate socialists, neoliberals are strong believers in democracy. Libertarians on the other hand advocate consumerism over the vote, and would rather we live in a world where dollars ran things not ballots.
Best thing I've ever heard on libertarianism:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxPUvQZ3rcQ
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Old 03-25-2014, 09:20 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
66,196 posts, read 33,604,999 times
Reputation: 14158
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
"The only real difference is that neoliberals unlike libertarians tend to support military interventionism" wrong
"The only real difference is, neoliberals unlike libertarians, tend to support military interventionism." wrong
--------------

The only difference is that neoliberals, unlike libertarians, tend to support military interventionism. correct

Incorrect. "that", used as an idioms, is repetitive.
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