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Old 03-26-2014, 09:35 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
256 posts, read 206,432 times
Reputation: 205

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Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
Did you read his actual words or did you let the OP brainwash you?

Why can't someone sincerely think that a private business owner has right to refuse service for any reason under the sun and that people should then choose not to do business with that owner if he is racist or etc...

I don't agree with that thought, but it is perfectly possible to hold that position and not be a racist.
True but it reeks of privilege. It's very telling that overwhelming the people you see making this argument are white, straight(usually male) and "Christian". It guess it's easy when historically you and your family haven't been discriminated against, to think that discrimination will just care itself. Let's be honest, if we had used thing model against discrimination over the last 50 years he and his family would not have faced any consequences. I certainly can't say that's the same for mine. How long would business owners in the South refused to serve blacks if they weren't forced to by the Civil Rights Act?

You don't see people of color or any other historically discriminated group making this argument, because they know that's not the case. What would the free market have done for blacks in the 1940's. Not a damn thing. It's certainly didn't help my grandfather returning from WWII. He was still refused service in place despite being uniform. In the 50's and 60's my mom and dad as kids remember going visit family in the South and nothing stop a certain places. It's pretty clear that people who think have never come close to or someone they know being discriminated against.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:16 AM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,671,842 times
Reputation: 20028
Quote:
Originally Posted by GHOSTRIDER AZ View Post
If we are to achieve true equality in this country we must get away from Protected Classes. That is if your money is where your mouth is.

The other point is who business is it who you chose to do business with. After all I have been told we are in the "Age of Obama".

If all is equal all of these so call race Haters like Jessie Jackson and cast of equal opportunity haters to be dismissed.

Detroit, Chicago and Ci. are all train wrecks with race haters, corrupt pro Union City Gov.

You get my drift!
well said. until we eliminate protected classes, we are never going to have true equality, and we are never going to eliminate racism. the other thing we need to do is eliminate the divisiveness of classes. until we see everyone as human beings, rather than black, gay, homeless, etc. we are never going to reach the potential that we are capable of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed View Post
Businesses should be allowed to turn anyone away, because it is free association or some other term for it. To me, that is dog whistle language for "I shouldn't have to serve n******, s****, w*******, k****, or f****** if I don't wanna!"
for someone who claims to be unbrainwashed, you certainly follow the brainwashing of the left dont you? it is true that there are people who would come out and say things like that, and there are those that would practice that in business, but in both cases they would lose their business or job in short order because far too many people would stop patronizing that business, and it would start losing money in large chunks and eventually go out of business. granted there are like minded people who would patronize that business, but they wouldnt spend enough money to keep said business going.

and it would make other more enlightened businesses prosper because that business owner would advertize the fact that all are welcome, perhaps even promoting special sales for those displaced by other businesses, to encourage everyone to patronize that business instead of the idiot who kicks people out because of some stupid reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redraven View Post
"WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE!"

That sign is prominently posted in many businesses all across the country.
It is, of course, absolutely meaningless, in that no business can refuse service to anyone for any reason, except possibly "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service"
IMO, that sign should be enforced. A business owner SHOULD have the absolute right to control who enters his establishment, and who he will serve!
agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
Let's use his whole quote for better context:

"“It’s a bill that protects the constitutional right to free association, the right to free speech and private property rights,” he said.

Jensen goes so far as to say that businesses should have the right to deny service based on a customer’s race or religion – whether that’s right or wrong, he says, can be fairly addressed by the free market, not the government. “If someone was a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and they were running a little bakery for instance, the majority of us would find it detestable that they refuse to serve blacks, and guess what? In a matter of weeks or so that business would shut down because no one is going to patronize them,”"

From OP's link.

So we have a Republican condemning the KKK - just arguing for a libertarian perspective of free association. I think it is pathetic for the OP to take this out of that context and then try to smear a guy for stating a libertarian belief.

This is what is wrong with politics. The guy says racism is wrong, but let the free market punish racists, don't make the government make it illegal to be racist. So the OP presents it in a manner to play the race card instead of merely presenting the guy's beliefs in an honest way and then saying why he supports government intervention instead of this guy's belief...
excellent post.
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Old 03-26-2014, 11:27 AM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,671,842 times
Reputation: 20028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartanguy View Post
True but it reeks of privilege. It's very telling that overwhelming the people you see making this argument are white, straight(usually male) and "Christian". It guess it's easy when historically you and your family haven't been discriminated against, to think that discrimination will just care itself. Let's be honest, if we had used thing model against discrimination over the last 50 years he and his family would not have faced any consequences. I certainly can't say that's the same for mine. How long would business owners in the South refused to serve blacks if they weren't forced to by the Civil Rights Act?

You don't see people of color or any other historically discriminated group making this argument, because they know that's not the case. What would the free market have done for blacks in the 1940's. Not a damn thing. It's certainly didn't help my grandfather returning from WWII. He was still refused service in place despite being uniform. In the 50's and 60's my mom and dad as kids remember going visit family in the South and nothing stop a certain places. It's pretty clear that people who think have never come close to or someone they know being discriminated against.
what you are forgetting is that the 40s and 50s is a much different time than today. rampant racism then was not only tolerated, but encouraged. but even by the late 50s that was starting to change, in fact had been changing in most parts of the country, the south was holding on to the old ways.

today however racism isnt tolerated today, and even discouraged for the most part. in the 40s, if you kept black out of your establishment, you didnt lose your customer base, in fact sometimes you increased it. today however if you were to keep blacks out of your establishment, you would find that not only would you lose your customer base, but chances are that your business would be plastered on the news across the country, and across the internet, and your reputation would take a nosedive faster than an airliner pointed straight at the ground with throttles wide open.

heck today if you even have a suggestion of you discriminating against people of a certain race or class, you are going to lose business. if you toss out people who are disruptive in the business, and they always seem to be black people for instance, you are going to get the reputation that you discriminate against black people, especially if you dont toss out disruptive people of your race.

these days the free market would work for your ancestors.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,300,450 times
Reputation: 35920
^^I wouldn't be so sure. People wouldn't be defending a business owner's right to discriminate if there weren't people to discriminate against.
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:25 PM
 
Location: USA
13,255 posts, read 12,079,149 times
Reputation: 4228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Agreed. Not serving asshats is 1 thing, not serving people who DON'T try to start drama needs to be illegal.
Agree 100%.


Who turns away business based on things like that anyway??!
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Old 03-26-2014, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,300,450 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtownoe View Post
Agree 100%.


Who turns away business based on things like that anyway??!
LOTS of people used to. Ron Paul argued in 2012 they should still be able to, so apparently LOTS still want to.
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:06 PM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,671,842 times
Reputation: 20028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
^^I wouldn't be so sure. People wouldn't be defending a business owner's right to discriminate if there weren't people to discriminate against.
reread the OP again, he isnt defending the business owners right to discriminate, but rather he is defending the free market that would in fact very likely put that business out of business by not patronizing it. like i said, if a business tosses out trouble makers, thats one thing, if they just toss out those that the business owner considers undesirables, pick a group and group, that group of people is going to band together these days and create an air of unpopularity around the business, and as such that business will lose market share, and eventually go out of business.
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:23 PM
 
8,391 posts, read 6,272,335 times
Reputation: 2314
conservatives never learn anything. This is why when they attempt to claim that the racists of the old south share a political kinship with modern day Democrats and not conservatives it is such a joke.

You don't have Democratic elected officials still debating the Civil Rights bills of the 1960's and arguing in favor of a return to legal segregation.

This is the problem with this perspective in the nutshell. A person cannot legally discriminate against a group of people unless the GOVERNMENT enforces and codifies discrimination against that group of people into law, that is known as segregation, Jim Crow, it is what existed.

If a store owner doesn't want black people in his store because they are black, and black people go into that store, then the POLICE the government has to enforce the racism of that store owner and tell black people the government backs this racist.

You cannot have a government that is anti-racism and discrimination while enforcing legal racism and discrimination. It cannot work.

So thank goodness intelligent people had the common sense to say no the American government is anti-racist and in the areas where the government would be called to side with racists or the groups they aim to discriminate against we are going to protect the rights of all Americans versus the rights of Americans to be racist against other groups of Americans.

In conservative and libertarian land, this is still up for debate and they are using the same tactics that old southern racists used to discriminate against black people to continue to discriminate against homosexuals. SMH.
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Old 03-26-2014, 03:49 PM
 
6,703 posts, read 13,927,690 times
Reputation: 5622
The same folks who are in favor of legal discrimination are saying it should be legal but a business will shut it's doors if it does it. Really, do you think a black business in a black neighborhood is gonna shut it's doors if it refuses to do business with whites. If a white owned business in South Dakota puts up a no blacks allowed signed do you really think it is going to go out of business. The assumption here is the majority will always do what's right when it comes to minority. It has been proven time and time again over the history of this country that this is not correct. There is reason why companies are not allowed to have a monopoly over a industry. Either you support legal discrimination or you don't. Trying to paint it any other way is a insult to rational thinking people.

Reggie
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Old 03-26-2014, 05:57 PM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,671,842 times
Reputation: 20028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
conservatives never learn anything. This is why when they attempt to claim that the racists of the old south share a political kinship with modern day Democrats and not conservatives it is such a joke.

You don't have Democratic elected officials still debating the Civil Rights bills of the 1960's and arguing in favor of a return to legal segregation.

This is the problem with this perspective in the nutshell. A person cannot legally discriminate against a group of people unless the GOVERNMENT enforces and codifies discrimination against that group of people into law, that is known as segregation, Jim Crow, it is what existed.

If a store owner doesn't want black people in his store because they are black, and black people go into that store, then the POLICE the government has to enforce the racism of that store owner and tell black people the government backs this racist.

You cannot have a government that is anti-racism and discrimination while enforcing legal racism and discrimination. It cannot work.

So thank goodness intelligent people had the common sense to say no the American government is anti-racist and in the areas where the government would be called to side with racists or the groups they aim to discriminate against we are going to protect the rights of all Americans versus the rights of Americans to be racist against other groups of Americans.

In conservative and libertarian land, this is still up for debate and they are using the same tactics that old southern racists used to discriminate against black people to continue to discriminate against homosexuals. SMH.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grainraiser View Post
The same folks who are in favor of legal discrimination are saying it should be legal but a business will shut it's doors if it does it. Really, do you think a black business in a black neighborhood is gonna shut it's doors if it refuses to do business with whites. If a white owned business in South Dakota puts up a no blacks allowed signed do you really think it is going to go out of business. The assumption here is the majority will always do what's right when it comes to minority. It has been proven time and time again over the history of this country that this is not correct. There is reason why companies are not allowed to have a monopoly over a industry. Either you support legal discrimination or you don't. Trying to paint it any other way is a insult to rational thinking people.

Reggie
you guys are typical of the socialist movement in this world. you think that everything has to be approved by the government, and that government regulation is the answer to every problem. and that is a false dichotomy. government is not the answer to our problems, because they ARE the problem.
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