Does Traditional College Debate Reinforce White Privilege? (country, Christ, household)
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But they are winning lol. They have the trophies to prove it. People are only saying they want to set up "traditional" and "alternative" debate factions because these teams are indeed winning. It is a whining reaction.
You should call the judges cheaters versus the teams winning the debates. That is all I'm saying. It seems that too many people want to label these kids as "cheaters" and "shriekers" and view them negatively for their "tactics" instead of looking at the white judges.
If you would have read the thread, you would know I already mentioned the movie, which is called "The Great Debaters." It spoke was about Wiley College, whose team is in the picture of the OP article. They did not debate Harvard as shown in the movie, it was USC and they did win the debate (movies do not usually accurately depict events and they changed the team since Harvard amongst the general populace has more prestige. USC was the actual debate champions during that time). Their team along with other HBCU teams have participated in debates with mainstream colleges since the 1930s and there have never been any issues because judges enforced the rules for them and other colleges the same.
You are blaming the participants partially when you should be blaming the judges completely. The participants have no fault in this, they are doing what they have been coached to do and that coaching is based upon the precedence set by the judges at these events. Give them parameters and they will follow those parameters.
Whining ?
Turning every debate topic into the War against Blacks ?
Sounds more like current politics and these Black students are just taking a cue from real life.
Bowing down to be PC above all else will surely be our downfall.
Turning every debate topic into the War against Blacks ?
Sounds more like current politics and these Black students are just taking a cue from real life.
Bowing down to be PC above all else will surely be our downfall.
Yes, whining about the participants instead of putting the judges in the spotlight for inadequate judging.
PC has nothing to do with it. No judges were asked about their reasons for not enforcing rules. No judges were even named, yet you have black participants named and their pictures even broadcasted over the media.
Direct your outrage where it needs to be directed - to the officials.
Newsflash from someone who's spent the last 15
years in the same trenches H1Bs are rumored to have taken over - everyone that
works in jobs that are popular with H1B workers starts off with crappy pay, long
hours and puts up with inordinate amounts of bs. My first job in programming,
when adjusted out for hours actually worked, paid maybe $9 an hour, was super
high stress, I worked more 30-40 hours DAYS than I can count, and our employer
had a round of layoffs at least every quarter. We had exactly one H1B working
there.
Considering there are only 24 hours in a day, I find this laughable. In any event, I (and my wife) have worked in pharma for decades, and I stick with what I've said. She has supervised these often unqualified H1Bs (and I have seen their resumes), and while some of them do good work, some are meh and some are monumentally incompetent.
Quote:
In fact, I've been at 4 different employers that employed H1Bs, and everyone got
worked the same. Multinationals treat everyone the same - like they're all
disposable and easily replaceable, which they are. The majority of my career has
been with publicly traded global corps, and how H1Bs have it is how everyone has
it. Only "savings" a corporation gets with H1B is payroll taxes, maybe a
slightly lower salary justified under less experience than peers. I had an H1B
for a supervisor for 3 years, and she made plenty of money.
Of course, it was probably a job someone from this country could have done.
Quote:
This is kinda to my earlier point - the real world is harsh and ugly, not just
for this group and that group, but for every group. Rewarding students for
ignoring the rules of debate because you're scared of offending them does them
no favors.
I agree.....but I was speaking specifically about H1Bs.
Quote:
In the real world, the people who are not in that group, who nobody cares
about offending, will be willing to do crap work for long hours...and the people
who are used to being coddled will have a list of demands their non-favored
peers will not, and that will put them on the outside looking in.
Yeah.........because if there's been any group in this country that's been coddled, it's black folk.
Quote:
It's criminal how low the expectation is for blacks relative to other races,
particularly the Asians who make up the bulk of the H1B force. When it comes
time to choose the worker for the job, and faced with the choice between two
perceptions - the tireless Asian who will kill themselves for you, or the
African American who is more of the wildcard - where do you think the employer
is headed?
Nah.............you're not filled to the brim by racial bias. My personal experience tells me that the "model minority" stereotype of the "tireless Asian.....bullcrap" is nothing more than fantasy. And you've falled for the *******s that represents, I see.
Quote:
They read stories like this, and the disservice done to these students
is made manifest by the casual reader making up their mind on the subject
because the story keeps repeating itself.
Judge everyone the same. Hold everyone to the same standard. Have the same
expectation for everyone. Man, woman, black, white, orange, or purple...treat
everyone EXACTLY THE SAME, exactly as bad, exactly as good. Start when they are
little, and never stop. That's how you get equality, not by allowing random
outbursts of rap music as straw man to win formal debates.
[/quote]
Until that is actually done, nothing you say and, for that matter, nothing I say will mean anything. You can't treat everyone the same until the playing field is level.
Rashid Campbell and George Lee from the University of Oklahoma, two highly accomplished African-American debaters with distinctive dreadlocks and dashikis.
Just wanted to say that the red bolded line is the issue at hand IMO in regards to workers and in education itself. There is nothing to suggest that an educated, qualified black American IT worker would be a "wildcard." That in and of itself is based in a discriminatory belief system of our country.
I didn't say it was proper, and I didn't say it was right...I said it was the perception. When was the last time you read an article about an Asian being done a favor because of their race? Popular perception right now is that Asians have to do it better, stronger and faster than everyone else because elite schools "have enough of them" and STEM fields are already "full of them." It may not be true, but ask 100 people if they think Wang Xu got a handout on the way to graduating MIT, and I bet dimes to donuts that 99 of those 100 say no way, of course not. Now ask them the same question about Malik Washington. Bet you get a much different set of responses. Perception is 99% of reality. And the "reality" most anyone under the age of 60 has spent their entire lives being peddled is that Asians are smart, hard working folk who need no special favor or advantage, and black folks are handicapped at birth and cannot possibly function without favor, excuse making, pandering, etc. We all get this message peddled at us constantly. Is it no surprise then when subjects/career fields that don't particularly care about socioeconomic racial sensitivity are not real popular with folks who have pandering and low expectation peddled to them, while being absurdly popular with people who are told all the time that because too many people who look like them are successful, they need to work even harder to even be noticed, and shut up because well, shut up.
It's the pandering, the naked institutional discrimination masquerading as favor, that creates this perception in the entire national culture. Don't blame me, I didn't make the news, I am just reporting it.
And when you see formal debate, one of our university system's last great huffy intellectualism holdouts, being systematically dismantled by cowards who feel like they must excuse/forgive/pander to black participants for changing the rules as they go...because well, they're black and I'll probably get in trouble for applying rules fairly, or worse yet, might get called "racist"...well then you see that perception manifested in the real world. If Biff Worthington III and his partner Xang Zhi decided to open a formal debate by changing the subject and building a strawman, the judges would be less scared to drop the hammer on them...because of perception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
Sadly, many people hold that same belief, which is why qualified black applicants are not given the same opportunity as whites and Asians in STEM fields, especially by multi-national companies. They have a low opinion of black people in general and there is nothing that black people can do to combat that stereotype. Black people have risen in every positive factor out there in regards to educational achievement. Yet negativity is still lauded as the definition of black intellect. Contrary to what people believe, the attitudes about black people in this country is not something that is totally controlled by the black populace. No matter what large groups of individuals do in that demographic, the majority body still views black people in a negative light and doesn't even recognize all the positive strides that have been made with black people in this country.
I never said this was the fault of black people. I am quite clear that white guilt is far more destructive than overt white racist antagonism ever was. It's the pandering, the excuse making, the genuflecting before these racial altars that is to blame, and that is machinery controlled almost entirely by self-important, moronic, naive white liberals with a guilt complex.
And the harshest critics of this system of white guilt pandering, or Grievance, Inc. tend to be educated, successful black people who would dearly love to rid themselves of this artificial, nonsensical anchor around their necks that white people trying to "be down" have put there. And again, it's because who knows better how the perception works? It's like women in the military. The most unfair thing the military does to them is TREAT THEM SPECIAL AND NICER. Can't think of a worse thing to do, because it sets an initial level of resentment against them that they had nothing to do with. Every time a woman can pass a physical test by doing less than a male of the same age and rank...the perception grows, and the resentment along with it.
Why do you think I rail so hard against affirmative action? It is the rot, the cancer, the infection that makes this nauseating perception grow and fester.
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007
Blacks in general are viewed poorly also with Asians from many Asian countries. The fact that these people who are hiring have a low view of blacks, even African blacks that many white Americans don't view as negatively, is another reason why more black people in general are not employed in IT fields. The Asians will hire other Asians versus a black person. If they don't have another Asian, they will hire a white person.
I agree, and you can thank the pandering industry, far more than the actions of black people, for that. Thank the pandering industry for allowing a debate to be won by the team who did the least effective job of discussing the actual topic, simply because they were black while being wildly off topic. Every time you give a gold medal to mediocrity, and do so because of the racial demographic of the recipient, you hurt them and everyone who looks like them. Perception is a very pervasive, slow to change thing, and you cannot legislate it, you cannot command it, you just have to let it evolve as it chooses. It is THE unintended consequence of all unintended consequences, and by far the most destructive.
I didn't say it was proper, and I didn't say it was right...I said it was the perception. When was the last time you read an article about an Asian being done a favor because of their race? Popular perception right now is that Asians have to do it better, stronger and faster than everyone else because elite schools "have enough of them" and STEM fields are already "full of them." It may not be true, but ask 100 people if they think Wang Xu got a handout on the way to graduating MIT, and I bet dimes to donuts that 99 of those 100 say no way, of course not. Now ask them the same question about Malik Washington. Bet you get a much different set of responses. Perception is 99% of reality. And the "reality" most anyone under the age of 60 has spent their entire lives being peddled is that Asians are smart, hard working folk who need no special favor or advantage, and black folks are handicapped at birth and cannot possibly function without favor, excuse making, pandering, etc. We all get this message peddled at us constantly. Is it no surprise then when subjects/career fields that don't particularly care about socioeconomic racial sensitivity are not real popular with folks who have pandering and low expectation peddled to them, while being absurdly popular with people who are told all the time that because too many people who look like them are successful, they need to work even harder to even be noticed, and shut up because well, shut up.
It's the pandering, the naked institutional discrimination masquerading as favor, that creates this perception in the entire national culture. Don't blame me, I didn't make the news, I am just reporting it.
And when you see formal debate, one of our university system's last great huffy intellectualism holdouts, being systematically dismantled by cowards who feel like they must excuse/forgive/pander to black participants for changing the rules as they go...because well, they're black and I'll probably get in trouble for applying rules fairly, or worse yet, might get called "racist"...well then you see that perception manifested in the real world. If Biff Worthington III and his partner Xang Zhi decided to open a formal debate by changing the subject and building a strawman, the judges would be less scared to drop the hammer on them...because of perception.
I never said this was the fault of black people. I am quite clear that white guilt is far more destructive than overt white racist antagonism ever was. It's the pandering, the excuse making, the genuflecting before these racial altars that is to blame, and that is machinery controlled almost entirely by self-important, moronic, naive white liberals with a guilt complex.
And the harshest critics of this system of white guilt pandering, or Grievance, Inc. tend to be educated, successful black people who would dearly love to rid themselves of this artificial, nonsensical anchor around their necks that white people trying to "be down" have put there. And again, it's because who knows better how the perception works? It's like women in the military. The most unfair thing the military does to them is TREAT THEM SPECIAL AND NICER. Can't think of a worse thing to do, because it sets an initial level of resentment against them that they had nothing to do with. Every time a woman can pass a physical test by doing less than a male of the same age and rank...the perception grows, and the resentment along with it.
Why do you think I rail so hard against affirmative action? It is the rot, the cancer, the infection that makes this nauseating perception grow and fester.
I agree, and you can thank the pandering industry, far more than the actions of black people, for that. Thank the pandering industry for allowing a debate to be won by the team who did the least effective job of discussing the actual topic, simply because they were black while being wildly off topic. Every time you give a gold medal to mediocrity, and do so because of the racial demographic of the recipient, you hurt them and everyone who looks like them. Perception is a very pervasive, slow to change thing, and you cannot legislate it, you cannot command it, you just have to let it evolve as it chooses. It is THE unintended consequence of all unintended consequences, and by far the most destructive.
I was not speaking directly about you just about the system of discrimination in our country and abroad in regards to the stereotypes and expectations of black people in the work place and in a school environment.
As expressed earlier in the thread, I do feel that white guilt is a factor in this. I also feel that just flat out bias is to blame and that neither liberals nor conservatives hold complete blame or fault in the matter and not just white people either.
But to play on your earlier comments that I red/bolded, and in regards to affirmative action, I honestly do feel AA is still needed because those attitudes still persist and have persisted and will continue to persist. I honestly don't think they will go away within the next 100 years but I do feel that AA should be around for at least another 50 years. When a white felon has a better chance at a job versus a black person without a criminal record who also has a BA, that is indicative of serious hiring discrimination and the only way for black people to have a chance at a decent career in many fields is through AA. I have mentioned before on these threads that Paul Laurence Dunbar always comes to mind for me in regards to these types of discussions. He went to school with the Wright brothers in Dayton, OH. He was a valedictorian of their high school, yet when he graduated (which was VERY rare for all people let alone black people during that time period) he could not find work worthy of his academic training and abilities and had to find employment as an "elevator boy." Situations like this will limit one's economic aspirations and achievement, which in effect will limit the educational opportunities and economic opportunities of the children of people like him in the past and today since this bias still holds true today for black people in many fields, especially STEM careers. They are not given the opportunity even though they are qualified based primarily on racial bias in many instances. I don't think that AA is foolproof or perfect (and it is not something I think should be done in the educational sector the same way as the employment sector - I like Texas' system of automatic enrollment for the top 10% of all public schools as that includes all demographics of a particular area), but unfortunately negative stereotypes are still too heavily entrenched in our society that can and does affect hiring at a specific level. And FWIW, this is even something that is done with the reverred Asians. They are not given opportunities in higher management and corporate careers versus whites, neither are high achieving African immigrants and their children so racial bias is something that unfortunately is still heavily affecting hiring and promotion in our country.
Considering there are only 24 hours in a day, I find this laughable.
Go to work Monday morning, leave work Tuesday evening. You will have been at work for 32-34 hours straight. Thus 30-40 work day is a euphemism for working a lot of overtime in one massive dose. Go tell a commercial fisherman that you think the concept of the 30-40 hour day is laughable. See how that works out for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario
In any event, I (and my wife) have worked in pharma for decades, and I stick with what I've said. She has supervised these often unqualified H1Bs (and I have seen their resumes), and while some of them do good work, some are meh and some are monumentally incompetent.
H1B no different from any other hire in any other business - caveat emptor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario
Of course, it was probably a job someone from this country could have done.
Of course. I could have done her job. Point is, she got paid pretty well as an H1B.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario
Yeah.........because if there's been any group in this country that's been coddled, it's black folk.
Glad you recognize that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucario
Nah.............you're not filled to the brim by racial bias. My personal experience tells me that the "model minority" stereotype of the "tireless Asian.....bullcrap" is nothing more than fantasy. And you've falled for the *******s that represents, I see.
Until that is actually done, nothing you say and, for that matter, nothing I say will mean anything. You can't treat everyone the same until the playing field is level.
Tell me...does all that cognitive dissonance hurt?
Yes, whining about the participants instead of putting the judges in the spotlight for inadequate judging.
PC has nothing to do with it. No judges were asked about their reasons for not enforcing rules. No judges were even named, yet you have black participants named and their pictures even broadcasted over the media.
Direct your outrage where it needs to be directed - to the officials.
In your mind, is it always those in authority who are at fault? These guys totally changed the topic of the debate, so yes, they cheated. The judges are stupid for letting the cheaters get away with it, causing it to continue to happen and change the way debates are done over the last several years.
You can't go into a courtroom and say, "Forget about this crime. The problem is that people of color have been suppressed in this country." That's not how debates work.
Just because the stupid judges allowed it to happen does not mean that the participants aren't guilty of changing the topic, i.e., cheating.
There. You don't need a syllabus, you can just listen to it straight from the instructor's mouth.
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