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Old 05-27-2014, 01:51 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,762,258 times
Reputation: 14345

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
What you mean "We", Kimosabe?

I for one am quite sure it is NOT possible. Criminals, including wannabee criminals such as certain mentally ill people who want to shoot a bunch of people but haven't done it yet, will ALWAYS find a way to get a gun... unless there are no guns anywhere on the planet.

And even then, anyone with the cash to pay an unscupulous (or frightened) machinist, can get one anyway.

You'd have to be excessively naive to believe making laws has ANY effect on the people who break laws... especially murderers.


TRANSLATION: I can't refute it, or even come close, so I'll try to pretend it's somehow not a "good question".


Correct. As I pointed out, a total ban creates far more problems than it cures... so it's no "solution" at all.

And no one has come up with anything else that has a prayer of working in the real world.
Great. YOU don't think it's possible. I and many others do think it's possible. That would be the "We", Kemosabe?

Of course laws have an effect on people. To say that laws don't have ANY effect is the irrational assertion. Otherwise there'd be no reason to have laws at all.

I don't expect the laws to stop EVERY single criminal. I don't expect the laws to stop EVERY single mentally ill person. But if the laws prevent even SOME of these murder sprees, then the laws have saved SOME lives, and are worth it.

It's not all or nothing. That's not what laws are about. Laws don't create a perfect society. We already know that. There will be always be criminals. There will always be mentally ill people. And discussing how to keep mentally ill people from harming themselves or harming others is a reasonable discussion for people to have.

 
Old 05-27-2014, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,869 posts, read 24,315,736 times
Reputation: 8672
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
I guess ..
Every law we pass in the name of "public safety" every single one restricts freedom.

Speed limits, DUI's, gun laws, you name it, it restricts freedom.

Its a matter of how free you really want to be. But freedom is never safe.
 
Old 05-27-2014, 01:51 PM
 
Location: West Michigan
12,372 posts, read 9,277,255 times
Reputation: 7364
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
Yeah.. This is too much.

I bet a lot of these mentally ill people don't even know they are dangerous.
And they would be right. The vast number of people treated for a mental illness are not dangerous.
 
Old 05-27-2014, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,008 posts, read 27,392,311 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Little-Acorn View Post
I've searched this thread (and others) for any better answer. Haven't found one.

Have you?
No I haven't. I just said I haven't lol
 
Old 05-27-2014, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,008 posts, read 27,392,311 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayland Woman View Post
And they would be right. The vast number of people treated for a mental illness are not dangerous.
In another words, they can have guns if they want to.
 
Old 05-27-2014, 01:55 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,582 posts, read 9,752,542 times
Reputation: 4172
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
But how do you face this devastating father? Tell him, your son just happened to be in the wrong place at wrong time?
Freedom isn't safe. Americans used to understand that.

You are never safe in a free country, ever.
That's another way of phrasing what lilyflower said.

And though it's devastating and horrible, it's true... which makes it a "better" answer than all the unworkable ones other people have advanced.
 
Old 05-27-2014, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
39,008 posts, read 27,392,311 times
Reputation: 15932
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I don't expect the laws to stop EVERY single criminal. I don't expect the laws to stop EVERY single mentally ill person. But if the laws prevent even SOME of these murder sprees, then the laws have saved SOME lives, and are worth it.

It's not all or nothing. That's not what laws are about. Laws don't create a perfect society. We already know that. There will be always be criminals. There will always be mentally ill people. And discussing how to keep mentally ill people from harming themselves or harming others is a reasonable discussion for people to have.
I think this is a very balanced post.

Or maybe let their psychologists or therapists decide. If the professionals believe their patients have violent tendency, then put their names in the national data base. So these severely mentally ill folks cannot obtain firearms easily or legally. This can be a reasonable first step.

There should be a criminal background check, there should also be a mentally ill background check.
 
Old 05-27-2014, 01:58 PM
 
Location: NC
1,251 posts, read 2,571,173 times
Reputation: 588
Its easier to blame the gun. It doesnt vote or have an agenda
 
Old 05-27-2014, 02:02 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,287 posts, read 9,781,715 times
Reputation: 6509
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
I think this is a very balanced post.

Or maybe let their psychologists or therapists decide. If the professionals believe their patients have violent tendency, then put their names in the national data base. So these severely mentally ill folks cannot obtain firearms easily or legally. This can be a reasonable first step.
No, the reasonable step is to alert the authorities and let a court of law determine if a person is a danger. A therapist/psychologist should not have the ability to strip away someone's civil rights.

How quickly some hand over freedom without due process astonishes me sometimes.
 
Old 05-27-2014, 02:05 PM
 
Location: San Diego, CA
10,582 posts, read 9,752,542 times
Reputation: 4172
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Great. YOU don't think it's possible. I and many others do think it's possible. That would be the "We", Kemosabe?
Fine. If you want to circle-jerk like that (that is, support ideas a programs as "workable" when they are easily disproven and in fact have consistently failed in the past), then confine your remarks to your fellow dupes. Don't go acting like "everybody knows it's true", when that's not even close.

Quote:
Of course laws have an effect on people.
Nice try at pretending I said "people" when I didn't. I said "people who don't obey laws". You couldn't refute it, so you pretended I said something else. Pretty sad.

Quote:
To say that laws don't have ANY effect is the irrational assertion.
When it comes to people who don't obey laws, it is not only rational, it's true.

Quote:
Otherwise there'd be no reason to have laws at all.
My point exactly. Laws to restrict only the chronic lawbreakers, and make them change their actions simply bevcause the law is there, fall into that category: There is no reason to have them at all.

I'm glad you are slowly talking sense into yourself here.

Quote:
I don't expect the laws to stop EVERY single criminal. I don't expect the laws to stop EVERY single mentally ill person.
But they will stop every law-abiding person, and every sane, ration law-abider, won't they? Thus leaving them wide open to exploitation (or worse) from the ones the laws didn't stop, and never had a hope of stopping.

Quote:
But if the laws prevent even SOME of these murder sprees,
And if the laws prevents none of them? Or even makes the murder sprees easier to pull off?

(Because they do, you know.)
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