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and I'm not getting it, can someone please explain it to me in layman's terms...sorry but I want to understand it and am unable to grasp it.
Thank you
Creme
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Originally Posted by no1brownsfan
I haven't looked it up, but the way I interpretted from the poster who posted it is as such... The game is rigged, and we're screwed!
Hegel basically argues that things are the way they are because we can't do any better. Basically, that what exists is the most rational outcome of what exists.
In regards to the two-party system. I was trying to explain that we have a two-party system not because people are stupid, shortsighted, or manipulated by the media. Rather, the two-party system is the rational outcome of the way things are.
Of course, there are two schools of Hegelianism, the left and right.
The "right" school basically argues that the way things are now are basically perfect, otherwise things wouldn't be the way they are now(IE, America wouldn't be so rich and successful if it wasn't doing something right). The "left" school argues that the way things are are only perfect in the framework of what exists. But leaves open the idea that the entire framework can be changed. If you changed the framework, the rational outcomes produced from that change would also change.
Karl Marx for instance was a "Left Hegelian". His argument was that the entire system we live under is only rational because it leaves those in power with the most power. Thus, in his view, the only way to change the framework, was to strip away the source of power(in his view, it was capital).
As for my argument. What I was basically trying to say is, the things we are complaining about right now are the same things people have been complaining about for a very long time. If change was rational, it already would have happened.
I take a more "left Hegelian" approach. And recognize that while things are the way they are because under the current system we can do no better. I hold out the idea that the entire framework of the system can change. And thus, the rational outcome can change.
Basically, the two-party system can only be replaced by completely changing the framework. In this sense, we would have to change the constitution. But since changing the constitution is effectively impossible, because it doesn't benefit those in power. The only way to change anything, would be to strip away the source of power.
Basically, while it is fun to sit around here complaining about the two-party system. Unless you want to remake the framework of the system itself, then all we will ever do is sit around complaining about the two-party system. Just like everyone else before us for the last 200+ years.
*Sigh* I did not say Vermont is liberty minded, OR that they should take the lead. I said they tend to have a streak of independence and self-reliance.
I would assume that NH would lead VT and ME towards liberty, and you CAN have socialist style organizations in a nation based on liberty, as long as they don't force anyone into participation in their socialist system. (I WOULD NOT participate in a socialist system myself.)
The revolution in NH is an anti-government one, period. And they are having great successes when only 5% of the target amount of liberty minded movers have actually shown up there... what would it look like with 20x the liberty minded people?
I agree you can have socialist organizations in a nation of liberty(in fact, you will have more in a nation of liberty). But, it is very difficult for a socialist to differentiate private socialist organizations from public.
While I would concede that New Hampshire is one of the more "libertarian" states in the country. Vermont and Maine are not, and are getting worse not better.
The only way to prevent the perversion of public and private, is to chain down the government in the same way we chain down the perversion of religion by creating a wall between church and state. No such wall exists in New England. And the people there aren't really interested in building that wall.
As for the free state project. It wants to recruit 20,000 people to a state of 1.3 million. It has been going on for 14 years and hasn't reached its 20,000 target. Of those who have signed up, ~1,600 have already moved to New Hampshire. In that same period of time, the population of New Hampshire has grown by about ~90,000(from 1.24 million to 1.323 million. Which means "free stater's" represent about 1.77% of all population growth in the last 14 years.
Based on current numbers, New Hampshire would probably need an influx of about 200,000 or more libertarians to have any impact whatsoever on state politics. But what is the point in having libertarians in New Hampshire if all power is being centralized in Washington D.C. anyway?
The only way you can accomplish anything, would be in getting the state of New Hampshire to try to secede. But if secession is the only path forward, do we really need to go to New Hampshire?
I used to be a Democrat then I became a Republican (around the same time everyone started loving Dems and hating Reps). Now i have reached the point where i truly can't stand either party. There are different things i strongly dislike about each party and little or nothing that i do like. Both parties cheerleaders seem really naive to me that they believe their party stands for good. I have loved politics from an unusually young age (as a boy i would rather watch political conventions than play outside) but today i am cynical at the whole system . I feel like i need to find a third party to waste my vote on or not vote at all.
So does anyone else hate both parties...to the point where they don't even believe there is a "lesser of two evils". If so i would like to hear from you and why you feel that way.
Probably should have made it a poll. I passionately dislike both parties. Neither one seems all that interested in looking out for the good of the average American. Both are so corrupt that they're hopeless.
Cases of nonsensical hypocrisy: Republicans champion the sanctity of life on the abortion issue, but are huge advocates of capital punishment. Democrats are huge advocates for the idea that capital punishment is barbaric and uncivilized, yet they go all-in supporting abortion. Republicans are supposed to be the party of Christianity, yet they vehemently oppose compassion for the poor and downtrodden again and again. And yet, the Democrats are a terrible alternative as they allow rampant corruption to thrive within the massive social programs they created and throughout their political party. If you believe in Christian (or just religious) morals then they disagree with you on just about everything. The Dems will deficit spend like mad on bigger and bigger social, environmental or other "neat idea" programs. They couldn't care less that we can't afford it. The GOP will cut back that spending, only to spend it all on military. Neither one has any hope of ever balancing the federal budget. Both are in bed with big corporate interests so deeply that they are no longer capable of serving the people who elected them. They are currently so stubbornly deadlocked on every issue that it would take a miracle for anything useful o get done in this country within the foreseeable future.
I have very little use for either party at this point.
I agree you can have socialist organizations in a nation of liberty(in fact, you will have more in a nation of liberty). But, it is very difficult for a socialist to differentiate private socialist organizations from public.
I agree, but if the government just doesn't have the framework to make it public, no problem... it doesn't matter what they can or can not differentiate.
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While I would concede that New Hampshire is one of the more "libertarian" states in the country. Vermont and Maine are not, and are getting worse not better.
Again, I am thinking down the road when NH secedes, they might see the prosperity and freedom it causes and jump on board.
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The only way to prevent the perversion of public and private, is to chain down the government in the same way we chain down the perversion of religion by creating a wall between church and state. No such wall exists in New England. And the people there aren't really interested in building that wall.
So we can't change their hearts and minds? Guess there is just NO solution then. If you can't change the hearts and minds of the public, your effed. No matter what.
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As for the free state project. It wants to recruit 20,000 people to a state of 1.3 million. It has been going on for 14 years and hasn't reached its 20,000 target. Of those who have signed up, ~1,600 have already moved to New Hampshire. In that same period of time, the population of New Hampshire has grown by about ~90,000(from 1.24 million to 1.323 million. Which means "free stater's" represent about 1.77% of all population growth in the last 14 years.
And yet they have a libertarian veto in the state house. At this point NO piece of legislation gets through unless the libertarians approve. They hold seats under the names of democrats and republicans.
It is above 75% of the way to the target. (It was never intended to be rapid anyway, 14 years aint bad.) And according to the plan, NOBODY should have moved yet, the move is suppose to be triggered when they hit the goal, those 1,600 are considered early movers, and they are getting **** done.
Again, they ALREADY have a liberty veto in the house, just wait until the move IS triggered.
The people who sign up and move are VERY politically and socially active.. if 5% of the goal is having a good effect now, wait until 20X that amount of liberty activist live there.
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Based on current numbers, New Hampshire would probably need an influx of about 200,000 or more libertarians to have any impact whatsoever on state politics. But what is the point in having libertarians in New Hampshire if all power is being centralized in Washington D.C. anyway?
So having a liberty veto in the house doesn't count as an impact what-so-ever?
We are NOT talking about voters, the people that move for the FSP do WAY, WAAAAY more than simply voting.
You are being too cynical, this is the ONLY liberty movement in the world with any steam behind it, and all you can do is shoot it down.
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The only way you can accomplish anything, would be in getting the state of New Hampshire to try to secede. But if secession is the only path forward, do we really need to go to New Hampshire?
Uh, if you want the new nation to be liberty orientated, you need a concentration of liberty activists and politicians in one state, otherwise you just end up with another oligarchy.
What is your solution for liberty in your life time? I doubt it is any more feasible.
Last edited by Xander_Crews; 07-10-2014 at 06:33 PM..
Probably should have made it a poll. I passionately dislike both parties. Neither one seems all that interested in looking out for the good of the average American. Both are so corrupt that they're hopeless.
Cases of nonsensical hypocrisy: Republicans champion the sanctity of life on the abortion issue, but are huge advocates of capital punishment. Democrats are huge advocates for the idea that capital punishment is barbaric and uncivilized, yet they go all-in supporting abortion. Republicans are supposed to be the party of Christianity, yet they vehemently oppose compassion for the poor and downtrodden again and again. And yet, the Democrats are a terrible alternative as they allow rampant corruption to thrive within the massive social programs they created and throughout their political party. If you believe in Christian (or just religious) morals then they disagree with you on just about everything. The Dems will deficit spend like mad on bigger and bigger social, environmental or other "neat idea" programs. They couldn't care less that we can't afford it. The GOP will cut back that spending, only to spend it all on military. Neither one has any hope of ever balancing the federal budget. Both are in bed with big corporate interests so deeply that they are no longer capable of serving the people who elected them. They are currently so stubbornly deadlocked on every issue that it would take a miracle for anything useful o get done in this country within the foreseeable future.
I have very little use for either party at this point.
Hegel basically argues that things are the way they are because we can't do any better. Basically, that what exists is the most rational outcome of what exists.
The single individual must take responsibility and act according to his conscience. To vote for or support/promote Republicans or Democrats is to shirk responsibility and follow the herd.
I used to be a Democrat then I became a Republican (around the same time everyone started loving Dems and hating Reps). Now i have reached the point where i truly can't stand either party. There are different things i strongly dislike about each party and little or nothing that i do like. Both parties cheerleaders seem really naive to me that they believe their party stands for good. I have loved politics from an unusually young age (as a boy i would rather watch political conventions than play outside) but today i am cynical at the whole system . I feel like i need to find a third party to waste my vote on or not vote at all.
So does anyone else hate both parties...to the point where they don't even believe there is a "lesser of two evils". If so i would like to hear from you and why you feel that way.
I despise the two predominant political philosophies: liberalism and conservatism. The parties are pale manifestations of those two swaths of naive, pie-in-the-sky idiocy.
I could support something whose solutions tend to the practical and useful.
WE have the best gument money can buy. And the two majors, unfortunately, have a stranglehold on the system.
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