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Old 12-21-2007, 09:21 AM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,787,845 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fishmonger View Post
Are the following right-wing victim blames inconsistent to your reading eyes?

A. Blaming the jobless for being jobless, while simultaneously blaming "the ilayguls," minimum wages, and "corporate taxes that penalize job creators" for "stealing their jobs away?"
I blame Congress for that. Inflation eats away the poor and middle class the most and what does Congress do? Status quo... make more social programs... We already too taxed and you want to overspend more while inflation keeps rising? Get RID of the federal reserve and STOP spending. Soon there won't be any jobless but then Congress won't have issues to present during each re-election cycle. They create problems to get your vote. The don't want cures.. they want temporary fixes... otherwise how are they going to stay in office and get paid by corporations... We need to get rid of the corruption in Congress and shed off these shackles that led to the demise of many Americans... I don't blame Congress, I blame you for voting them into office to keep the status quo and then complaining about it...

Quote:
B. Blaming individuals for not being well-educated ("shoulda tried harder, you live in the land of opportunity") while simultaneously blaming the public school system, teachers' unions, and the Department of Education for "failing our kids," and claiming that we'll only be able to truly educate people if schools are privatized, while also regarding colleges and universities as useless "liberal indoctrination brainwashing camps?"

Also, contribute any others you can think of. If you're a right-winger it can be "left wing inconsistencies of making victims out of people who aren't really victims, like those ungrateful Palestinians and welfare queens" or something.
Its true, many ppl are not blessed with talent and intelligence. Then there are those with high potential that CHOOSE not to exercise their potential. Society is not at fault for an individuals choice. What has poor teachers led to? Poor students. What does the Department of Education do? Waste our tax dollars. You want to keep funding them? Or do you want a better system. Its no wonder a lot of ppl are opting INTO a privatized school system where education is better instead of the free education system. Competition brings one thing: Improvement. If its illegal for you to come into my house and steal my money.. don't ask the government to do it.. because it STILL is stealing... Lesson: Don't steal MY money for your otherwise worthless programs...
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:21 AM
 
42 posts, read 24,241 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Sorry but show me where the rich, are screaming in masses about the poor? Show me where they are stating they hate the poor?

All I see are accusations of the left, accusing the right of hating the poor, and until I see PROOF here, its just another baseless accusation.

Requesting someone to be individually responsible for themself, then family, then society, is not HATE.
Maybe "hate" is too strong of a word, but it's certainly ignorance at its best. I see it as a form of scapegoating -- people looking to blame, when the real waste of your precious tax dollars is courtesy of Mr. Bush and his pointless exploits in Iraq....in other words, the current administration should be the focus of scapegoating, not poor people, immigrants, or any other collective "group" that the Cons love to whine on about.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:23 AM
 
19,198 posts, read 31,413,343 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
The minute you started talking about it being IMPOSSIBLE to be responsible.
That minute has not arrived yet. The question was what part of KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED is consistent with a normal sex life. It is not irresponsible to engage in a normal sex life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
nice to know your the police of discussion here, and only you can determine whats of value.
Obvious tangents and evasions such as introducing 10-year olds into a discussion not at all about them hardly require an appeal to higher authority. They are what they are on the face of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Whats the matter, are you insulted by the truth that you cant refute the argument with facts? Have nothing left to do but make up percentages that dont exist. Guess as long as you feel good go for it, but please next time put a disclamer that looks like, WARNING, WARNING, made up percentage and fact following...
To date, you've not indicated which facts or figures you feel were made up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
I dont recall blaming it on Clinton (or even mentioning his name), I note how you've just changed lanes without signaling. Please move back to the proper slow lane so the conservatives who work to going faster can.
The Clinton reference was a projection, not an accusation. There is a difference between the two. But it's been my common experience to see people respond to the satire in my posts rather than to the substance. I usually understand why. Pretty simple, really...

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Last time I check, the right makes less then those on the left...
When WAS the last time you checked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
... and donate more (Per ABC, which is far from right wing).
You mischaracterize ABC, and you greatly mischaracterize John Stossel, who, after a promising beginning as a consumer advocate, has morphed himself into being one of the least useful persons on the planet, though lately he's been getting a lot of competition from Lou Dobbs. Meanwhile, actual analyses of charitable giving have been done. Anyone could go out and google them...if he or she wanted to.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:30 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,946,516 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Well there are a lot of posts complaining about supporting domestic spending programs and taxes and how unconstitutional it is to take my money to help somebody else. And the posts about how anybody that works at McDonalds should be able to afford a college education today. And how anybody that gets bankrupted due to having to suddenly pony up thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars due to a sudden medical emergancy just was not living within their means.

Most of the poor that get public assistance are on it for a finite period of time. Some people have this perception they are all freeloaders. A third of the homeless have jobs and are trying to get back into society. 25% of homeless are vets that were not given the proper medical and psychological care upon their return to our country. One poster derided helping these vets as a "feel good" program that was not based on the constitution. I respect people that donate privately to charities, but the need in our society appears to outweigh what people give privately. It was interesting that people of modest income contribute more on a perecentage basis to chatrities than the very rich do, because they actually know people that need help or understand that there but for the grace of God go I.
calling for individual responsibility, and not wanting out taxes STOLEN from us, is not HATRED.. Try for a new word.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:31 AM
 
42 posts, read 24,241 times
Reputation: 19
Quote:
Originally Posted by bily4 View Post
Well there are a lot of posts complaining about supporting domestic spending programs and taxes and how unconstitutional it is to take my money to help somebody else. And the posts about how anybody that works at McDonalds should be able to afford a college education today. And how anybody that gets bankrupted due to having to suddenly pony up thousands or tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of dollars due to a sudden medical emergancy just was not living within their means.

Most of the poor that get public assistance are on it for a finite period of time. Some people have this perception they are all freeloaders. A third of the homeless have jobs and are trying to get back into society. 25% of homeless are vets that were not given the proper medical and psychological care upon their return to our country. One poster derided helping these vets as a "feel good" program that was not based on the constitution. I respect people that donate privately to charities, but the need in our society appears to outweigh what people give privately. It was interesting that people of modest income contribute more on a perecentage basis to chatrities than the very rich do, because they actually know people that need help or understand that there but for the grace of God go I.
You raised some good points Billy, especially on the homeless.

Yes, there are some people out there who are homeless because they choose to be, but they are a small minority. Many homeless people are veterans, or mentally ill people who don't have anywhere to go since the institutions that once existed for the mentally ill are now pretty much gone. As for the veterans, I feel sorry for them too. These are people who served their country and many became very "troubled" after going through the horrors that must have existed in Vietnam. I find it a disgrace that many of these people are living on the streets and that no one seems to give a rat's a** about them (or the mentally ill).

College - it's not for everyone and the cost of tuition is simply staggering (well out of whack with inflation). And these days, even if you do go to college, you're not guaranteed a job at the end of it, only tens of thousands of dollars worth of debt.

Basically, I don't understand why people feel the need to blame all the time. Do they not realize that blaming is not the answer and is only going to make the situation worse?

You can't just assume that all poor people are just lazy bums. Those kind of assumptions make me want to "assume" that the individuals making those assumptions are basically just selfish, ignorant and judgmental.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:34 AM
 
42 posts, read 24,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
calling for individual responsibility, and not wanting out taxes STOLEN from us, is not HATRED.. Try for a new word.
Hate to break it to you pal, but your taxes have already been "stolen", due to a certain president and his decision to send troops to Iraq.

Then again, people with your mindset never seem to complain about *that* particular WASTE of taxpayers' money.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Arizona
5,408 posts, read 7,780,848 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
calling for individual responsibility, and not wanting out taxes STOLEN from us, is not HATRED.. Try for a new word.
Get off the soapbox for just a second pg and read the post. Is it your assertion then that most people that receive public assistance at any time in their lives are just not being "individually responsible"? Do you have any real data to back that assertion up with? Do you think having no social parachute - and seeing all these people instead starving, homeless, disease ridden in the streets would be a better alternative for our society? Do children deserve any special help?
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:37 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,946,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reload View Post
Maybe "hate" is too strong of a word, but it's certainly ignorance at its best. I see it as a form of scapegoating -- people looking to blame, when the real waste of your precious tax dollars is courtesy of Mr. Bush and his pointless exploits in Iraq....in other words, the current administration should be the focus of scapegoating, not poor people, immigrants, or any other collective "group" that the Cons love to whine on about.
Sorry but expecting someone to at least TRY to be responsible for themself, their family, and then society, is not ignorance. Ignorance would be stating that poor people dont exist, ignorance would be that all poor people are poor due to their own fault.

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=2682730&page=1

3/4th of the population of this country, donate an AVERAGE of $1800 a year. Thats far from ignorance

Conservatives are 18% more likely to give blood, thats far from ignorance.

People who believe in individual responsibility are 27% more likely to give money. Thats far from ignorance

Lets try again to villify people based upon a feeling, rather then fact.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:39 AM
 
7,381 posts, read 7,674,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reload View Post
To Fishmonger (and others):


Yes, I do find Conservative/right-wing victim blaming (or whatever you want to call it) incredibly inconsistent, add to that hypocritical and even cruel.

However, I don’t believe that this is solely a political issue. I think that people tend to look for a scapegoat, whether it’s poor people or immigrants. Blaming the problems of our country on scapegoats is far easier to do than taking a long, hard look at our society as a whole. Plus, I feel that bashing the poor tends to make those who have achieved success in life feel even better about themselves.

It’s funny, because you really don’t see masses of working poor people out there screaming about how much they hate rich people. If anything, it’s actually the other way around (and these forums alone are proof of that). Most working poor people are just out there trying to make ends meet, busting their asses working 2-3 jobs, while being chastised, blamed, put down and ridiculed by those who “have theirs”.

It’s very easy to sit back and blame poor / working class people for the situations they are in. It’s very easy to sit back and take a “blanket” approach in judging and essentially condemning millions of people who you don’t even know.

Then you wonder why there’s so much crime in the United States – it’s really not rocket science to figure that one out. The United States is the ultimate “me, me, me” society and you’re either a “have” or a “have not” – there’s really no in-between. I often feel that being poor in this country is worse than being a criminal and in many cases, people see the poor AS criminals who have committed the heinous crime of “Not making it in life and not taking personal responsibility” – a crime punishable by a lifetime of discrimination, blame and oh, if you get sick, tough! So no wonder so many turn to crime – they feel let down by society, chastised and blamed for being poor and they basically feel that they have nothing to lose (not that I am defending criminals for one second – just offering my own take on WHY people turn to crime in the first place).

People also say that the government should not help the poor as it would lower taxes and allow individuals to donate more to charities – all I have to say to that is YEAH, RIGHT! Of course, there are some good people out there who would donate, but I’m betting that for every one person who chooses to donate, 2,000 others won’t give a dime, or a damn. What you’ll have is a situation where the rich are incredibly rich and the poor are incredibly poor – kind of like Brazil.

I don’t know – I just find the general attitude in America towards those less fortunate (for whatever reason) as borderline sickening, especially at this time of the year. Not everyone can go out and get a college degree, not everyone can “make it” in the sense of being successful in business. As humans, we have evolved very quickly from being little more than hunter-gatherers – in many ways, we’ve probably evolved too quickly as many people have been left behind and are simply not cut out for the corporate “rat race”.

Most of the poor aren’t “victims” and I’m sure that most working poor people would not want to be seen as victims either. The only way I’d consider them victims is because they are constantly being put blamed by those who are more fortunate.

Blaming people for the so-called crime of being poor, and making them feel like s**t is not going to motivate them into helping themselves. All you’re doing is contributing to creating a society that is even more divided and filled with hatred and resentment – way to go America. People need to be encouraged, not blamed.


Being poor is not a crime.
Yes, let's encourage these people by providing more assistance for having more babies. Let's encourage them by providing free healthcare insurance, heating assistance, and more food stamps. Let's encourage them by telling them that they cannot achieve anything without the help of the government and other taxpayers, by telling them that no matter what they do "the man" won't allow them to achieve success, instead of encouraging them by showing them the opportunities available and demonstrating how they too can become successful with ambition and hard work, providing them not only financial independence but a sense of pride and self worth.

It seems that you and others are suggesting that the end justifies the means. If that be the case, I propose that we choose a particularly successful company in each county in each state, arm the poorest in the county, and have them go down to the pre-chosen company and kidnap an executive or middle management, ones who are considered unworthy of wealth, for each poor family and force them to hand over their bank accounts. This would seem to provide a more efficient manner of taking their money, without having to utilize the redtape of the government.
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Old 12-21-2007, 09:40 AM
 
69,368 posts, read 63,946,516 times
Reputation: 9383
Quote:
Originally Posted by saganista View Post
You mischaracterize ABC, and you greatly mischaracterize John Stossel, who, after a promising beginning as a consumer advocate, has morphed himself into being one of the least useful persons on the planet, though lately he's been getting a lot of competition from Lou Dobbs. Meanwhile, actual analyses of charitable giving have been done. Anyone could go out and google them...if he or she wanted to.
So your stating that ABC and Fox news are on the same political spectrum? Odd, never heard that before.
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