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Did they commit violence against you to get your tax dollars?
They threaten me with imprisonment in a cage if I don't pay up, that is a threat of violence... or am I allowed to coerce your actions by telling you I will cage you if you disobey me? (If it isn't a threat of violence, I can do it, right?)
What happens when I resist the illegitimate kidnapping? Physical violence.
They threaten me with imprisonment in a cage if I don't pay up,
Most likely, they'd garnish your wages and/or seize your property.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
that is a threat of violence... or am I allowed to coerce your actions by telling you I will cage you if you disobey me? (If it isn't a threat of violence, I can do it, right?)
No it isn't, it's the rule of law. The rule of law can only be the rule of law if there exists some kind of threat to those who would break it.
And you're not allowed to do that to me, you're not the government. A private citizen is not the government. Did you not know this?
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
What happens when I resist the illegitimate kidnapping? Physical violence.
What illegitimate kidnapping?
How many people has the IRS killed or wounded?
Just out of curiosity, I'm sure if they're so oppressive and "violent" the number must be very high, although I think it's likely zero or pretty close to zero.
Most likely, they'd garnish your wages and/or seize your property.
So I can seize your property if you disobey my dictates? If I refuse my property being seized, they use violence.
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No it isn't, it's the rule of law. The rule of law can only be the rule of law if there exists some kind of threat to those who would break it.
No, the rule of law says that theft is a crime no matter what... even if a majority says it is ok. I don't agree with being taxed, I never consented... to take my money is theft. Theft is a violation of the rule of law.
You only believe the rule of law applies to certain people, and if that is true, it doesn't exist.
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And you're not allowed to do that to me, you're not the government. A private citizen is not the government. Did you not know this?
Oh, so the men and women who call themselves "government" can take my property by force because a majority says it is ok? You should learn your words, that is the opposite of "rule of law" it is simply mob rule.
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What illegitimate kidnapping?
So it is legitimate for me to put you in a cage if I demand money and you refuse?
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How many people has the IRS killed or wounded?
The police are the enforcement arm, and they kill people every day.
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Just out of curiosity, I'm sure if they're so oppressive and "violent" the number must be very high, although I think it's likely zero or pretty close to zero.
They are not the enforcement arm.
I never consented to the government, I never signed anything saying I am willing to be subjected to threats of violence. If you believe in freedom, this is violent coercion.... it seems you don't believe in freedom though, just mob rule.
So I can seize your property if you disobey my dictates? If I refuse my property being seized, they use violence.
No YOU can't. YOU are not the government. YOU are not granted the authority by the people to enact and enforce the law. YOU do not provide due process. YOU clearly can't see the difference between what a private citizen does and the government enacting and enforcing legitimate laws. Nobody elected YOU to do anything. YOU do not enjoy the consent of the governed. The government did not arise arbitrarily, it was formed by the representatives of the people, voted into existence by representatives and the people choose their own elected officials. Nobody elected YOU, you have no legitimacy, no law to support you, you are not in any way comparable to the government.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
No, the rule of law says that theft is a crime no matter what... even if a majority says it is ok. I don't agree with being taxed, I never consented... to take my money is theft. Theft is a violation of the rule of law.
Theft is a crime. Taxation, the power to tax is specifically given to Congress in the Constitution, is not theft. By the way, the same government that taxes is the one that makes theft a crime. If you say their tax laws are illegitimate, then all their laws are illegitimate, including the ones making theft illegal.
You don't have to consent, this is not a totalitarian dictatorship that keeps people in, you are free to leave at any time you with if you don't like it.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
You only believe the rule of law applies to certain people, and if that is true, it doesn't exist.
No, I'm just smart enough to know the difference between crime and taxation.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
Oh, so the men and women who call themselves "government" can take my property by force because a majority says it is ok? You should learn your words, that is the opposite of "rule of law" it is simply mob rule.
No, only the government can call themselves the government. And it's not mob rule. The majority is elected after a lengthy campaign with the voters having been given plenty of time to deliberate. They enter the voting booth by themselves and as individuals cast their ballots in secret. It is literally almost the exact opposite of what mob rule looks like.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
So it is legitimate for me to put you in a cage if I demand money and you refuse?
Already answered.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
The police are the enforcement arm, and they kill people every day.
They are not the enforcement arm.
A cop-out, I asked you a specific question.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
I never consented to the government, I never signed anything saying I am willing to be subjected to threats of violence. If you believe in freedom, this is violent coercion.... it seems you don't believe in freedom though, just mob rule.
Again, that's the beauty of America, you don't have to consent, we're not forcing you to stay here. But if you live here, you'll have to pay taxes. There are few countries on this earth where you wouldn't have to pay taxes.
No YOU can't. YOU are not the government. YOU are not granted the authority by the people to enact and enforce the law. YOU do not provide due process. YOU clearly can't see the difference between what a private citizen does and the government enacting and enforcing legitimate laws. Nobody elected YOU to do anything. YOU do not enjoy the consent of the governed. The government did not arise arbitrarily, it was formed by the representatives of the people, voted into existence by representatives and the people choose their own elected officials. Nobody elected YOU, you have no legitimacy, no law to support you, you are not in any way comparable to the government.
So you can "elect" yourself the right to take my money by force as long as you have the will of the majority on your side? That is mob rule, bro.
I do not consent to taxation, you say that it is ok to use violence on me to enforce taxation... you just say whoever does it needs the approval of the majority... that is mob rule. You don't believe in human rights.... they, by the nature of their existence, can not be given away by anyone but the person themselves, not the majority of the electorate.
I know the difference between me and the "government", they just have the approval of the majority to use violence on peaceful people to coerce them out of their money.
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Theft is a crime. Taxation, the power to tax is specifically given to Congress in the Constitution, is not theft. By the way, the same government that taxes is the one that makes theft a crime. If you say their tax laws are illegitimate, then all their laws are illegitimate, including the ones making theft illegal.
I never gave congress consent to use violence upon me to extort money, and if the majority can give them consent to use violence on peaceful people, it is simply mob rule.
You don't think government needs the consent of the governed.
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You don't have to consent, this is not a totalitarian dictatorship that keeps people in, you are free to leave at any time you with if you don't like it.
STUPID argument. You are saying that the violent gang that you "voted" into power can use violence upon me if I am on "their" territory.
You don't believe in freedom, you believe in mob rule via violent gangs.
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No, I'm just smart enough to know the difference between crime and taxation.
LOL!, Smart..... You think that crimes become non-crimes if a majority of people give a group permission to commit the crime.
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No, only the government can call themselves the government. And it's not mob rule. The majority is elected after a lengthy campaign with the voters having been given plenty of time to deliberate. They enter the voting booth by themselves and as individuals cast their ballots in secret. It is literally almost the exact opposite of what mob rule looks like.
I don't consent to taxation. The only thing that you are saying gives "government" the ability to extort money violently is the approval of the majority, this is mob rule.
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Already answered.
Very poorly, unless you openly do not believe in human freedom.
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A cop-out, I asked you a specific question.
A stupid one. How many people did Hitler kill? How many people did his enforcement arm kill? Very many.
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Again, that's the beauty of America, you don't have to consent, we're not forcing you to stay here. But if you live here, you'll have to pay taxes. There are few countries on this earth where you wouldn't have to pay taxes.
LOL! "Submit to our violent threats or leave your homeland." Some freedom.
This is my home land, if you say I have to bend to your dictates or leave, you are threatening violence on me. You don't believe in the consent of the governed, you do not believe in freedom. Like at all.
So you can "elect" yourself the right to take my money by force as long as you have the will of the majority on your side? That is mob rule, bro.
No it isn't. Mob rule is not simply "rule by the majority." All democratic forms of government are majoritarian in nature and ours features a separation of powers that includes one branch of non-elected judges who could easily rule that tax is theft but haven't, probably because they're not incredibly stupid.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
I do not consent to taxation, you say that it is ok to use violence on me to enforce taxation... you just say whoever does it needs the approval of the majority... that is mob rule. You don't believe in human rights.... they, by the nature of their existence, can not be given away by anyone but the person themselves, not the majority of the electorate.
Everyone is not going to agree with every law under any form of government. The idea that must be a prerequisite is impossible and absurd.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
I know the difference between me and the "government", they just have the approval of the majority to use violence on peaceful people to coerce them out of their money.
I don't think you actually do know the difference since you keep equating what a criminal does (which is against the law) with what the government does (which is within the confines of the law and grants you due process).
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
I never gave congress consent to use violence upon me to extort money, and if the majority can give them consent to use violence on peaceful people, it is simply mob rule.
You don't think government needs the consent of the governed.
I do. But you do not make a majority, although you seem to think the world revolves around you. It does not. Again, there will never be, under any form of government, 100% of the people agreeing with 100% of the laws. It is not possible.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
STUPID argument. You are saying that the violent gang that you "voted" into power can use violence upon me if I am on "their" territory.
You don't believe in freedom, you believe in mob rule via violent gangs.
No. Let's go over what you clearly don't understand:
1. The difference between the government and an individual citizen.
2. The difference between mob rule and an orderly democratic form of government
3. The difference between the government and a violent (presumably criminal) gang
That's probably just the tip of the iceberg with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
LOL!, Smart..... You think that crimes become non-crimes if a majority of people give a group permission to commit the crime.
*facepalm* Who exactly decides what constitutes criminal behavior and what the penalties will be for committing criminal behavior? Who is charged with detecting, capturing and prosecuting criminals? The government. If you say tax laws are illegitimate because YOU don't agree with them, someone else is going to say the laws against theft are illegitimate because HE doesn't agree with them and then he's going to take all your stuff. You'll probably miss the government after that happens.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
I don't consent to taxation. The only thing that you are saying gives "government" the ability to extort money violently is the approval of the majority, this is mob rule.
Your consent is not necessary. You are not the center of the universe. I don't care if YOU consent to it. This has already been decided. You are free to try and get some people on your side and try to change the law to reflect whatever phony baloney nonsense you do consent to. Good luck, not really, I know you have no chance of making that happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
Very poorly, unless you openly do not believe in human freedom.
I don't believe human freedom is erased when you pay your taxes. But then again, I don't speak only the language of hyperbole and throw tantrums a drama queen would envy over something that everyone in every industrialized nation on earth has to do...pay taxes.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
A stupid one. How many people did Hitler kill? How many people did his enforcement arm kill? Very many.
More than the IRS. Another dodge. What's the matter? The violent gang not so violent? lol
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
This is my home land, if you say I have to bend to your dictates or leave, you are threatening violence on me. You don't believe in the consent of the governed, you do not believe in freedom. Like at all.
lol
Weak, weak, weak.
If taxes are a deal breaker for you, move. I really don't care what you think, you're clearly too immature to have this debate and are in way over your head. You seem to think the guiding principle of government should be to grant your every childish whim or else you deem it illegitimate. I don't care what you deem it. You're wrong, deal with it.
No it isn't. Mob rule is not simply "rule by the majority." All democratic forms of government are majoritarian in nature and ours features a separation of powers that includes one branch of non-elected judges who could easily rule that tax is theft but haven't, probably because they're not incredibly stupid.
I didn't consent to your three branch system, either you don't believe in human freedom, or you believe that someone can give away my freedoms for me, which also means you don't believe in freedom.
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Everyone is not going to agree with every law under any form of government. The idea that must be a prerequisite is impossible and absurd.
Look who has never read the philosophy human rights are based upon. The whole idea of rights relies on the idea that they preempt government, otherwise they are completely pointless.
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I don't think you actually do know the difference since you keep equating what a criminal does (which is against the law) with what the government does (which is within the confines of the law and grants you due process).
You believe that crimes can only exist if government says they do, the WHOLE point of human rights is that natural law exists, and ANY violation of it is a crime, even if the mob gives themselves permission.
You don't believe in freedom at all, you believe in privileges.
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I do. But you do not make a majority, although you seem to think the world revolves around you. It does not. Again, there will never be, under any form of government, 100% of the people agreeing with 100% of the laws. It is not possible.
The indoctrination is strong with this one. If you just didn't use violence to coerce me into participation, the government would be voluntary and consensual... it would then jive with the ideas of human freedom. Your ideas simply do. not. conform. to the ideas of natural law of which the ideas of human freedom are derived.
You believe in privileges granted by the majority, not freedom.
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No. Let's go over what you clearly don't understand:
1. The difference between the government and an individual citizen.
2. The difference between mob rule and an orderly democratic form of government
3. The difference between the government and a violent (presumably criminal) gang
That's probably just the tip of the iceberg with you.
You do not know the definitions of those words, clearly. You just believe whatever the violent gang tells you. You think a gang is legitimate if the majority approves.
You simply make false distinctions to make your shackles feel lighter upon your wrists.
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*facepalm* Who exactly decides what constitutes criminal behavior and what the penalties will be for committing criminal behavior? Who is charged with detecting, capturing and prosecuting criminals? The government. If you say tax laws are illegitimate because YOU don't agree with them, someone else is going to say the laws against theft are illegitimate because HE doesn't agree with them and then he's going to take all your stuff. You'll probably miss the government after that happens.
Again, look who has obviously never read Smith, Locke, Bacon, Voltaire, etc... your ignorance to the ideas of natural law and human rights is LAUGHABLE.
Again, just embrace the truth, you believe in mob rule. You have no concept of human rights and natural law of which they are based upon. You don't think it exists.
You simply do not believe in freedom, it is just a feel-good buzzword to you.
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Your consent is not necessary. You are not the center of the universe. I don't care if YOU consent to it. This has already been decided. You are free to try and get some people on your side and try to change the law to reflect whatever phony baloney nonsense you do consent to. Good luck, not really, I know you have no chance of making that happen.
So you think this is false:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government."
You can't give my consent, no matter how many people are on your side. Can the majority of people give consent to sex for a woman who does not agree?
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I don't believe human freedom is erased when you pay your taxes. But then again, I don't speak only the language of hyperbole and throw tantrums a drama queen would envy over something that everyone in every industrialized nation on earth has to do...pay taxes.
YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN HUMAN FREEDOM, PERIOD. Read some damn Locke, the whole concept is based on natural law, which you don't believe exists.
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More than the IRS. Another dodge. What's the matter? The violent gang not so violent? lol
Calling you out for an obvious fallacy is not a dodge, you would understand if you knew the definitions of the words you use.
The IRS is NOT the gang, they are PART of it, DUH! It is hilarious how simple it is to fool you by having different departments.
This is like saying that the Don of a mafia is not violent because their enforcers take care of the dirty work.
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lol
Weak, weak, weak.
Look, commentary on your understanding of the philosophy of government and freedom.
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If taxes are a deal breaker for you, move. I really don't care what you think, you're clearly too immature to have this debate and are in way over your head. You seem to think the guiding principle of government should be to grant your every childish whim or else you deem it illegitimate. I don't care what you deem it. You're wrong, deal with it.
Ha ha ha! Your ignorance to natural law and human rights shows again... read the people who came up with the concepts so you stop embarrassing yourself.
Your government is predicated on violence and you endorse any violence approved by the majority. You are the perfect subject, but you are not a free man.
Look at you devolving into insults because you can't argue the concepts... two can play that game, you are childish, immature, etc...
You don't need my consent to rule over me, don't care what I think about it, and you think you believe in human freedom? HA HA HA!
I never said government had to grant me ANYTHING, you made that up... of course, you already admitted that your government is predicated on violence against those who don't agree with it, which was my original point... so you already lost.
I didn't consent to your three branch system, either you don't believe in human freedom, or you believe that someone can give away my freedoms for me, which also means you don't believe in freedom.
I don't care if you consent to it. Really, I don't. The world does not revolve around you and what you consent to. You are free to try and get enough people to agree with you and get it changed.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
Look who has never read the philosophy human rights are based upon. The whole idea of rights relies on the idea that they preempt government, otherwise they are completely pointless.
Then you let me know when theft is no longer illegal and the thief steals all your stuff how the natural cops and the natural prosecutor put the criminal in the natural jail. How's that, freshman philosophy major?
lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
You believe that crimes can only exist if government says they do, the WHOLE point of human rights is that natural law exists, and ANY violation of it is a crime, even if the mob gives themselves permission.
You don't believe in freedom at all, you believe in privileges.
Again, you let me know when the natural cops and natural judges and natural prosecutors and natural prisons spring up to prosecute the natural law breakers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
The indoctrination is strong with this one. If you just didn't use violence to coerce me into participation, the government would be voluntary and consensual... it would then jive with the ideas of human freedom. Your ideas simply do. not. conform. to the ideas of natural law of which the ideas of human freedom are derived.
You believe in privileges granted by the majority, not freedom.
Yes, I was indoctrinated with common sense. And I know enough of human nature to know that a government that is voluntary and consensual is an impossible idea that only a moron who lived in a cave his entire life, void of any human contact whatsoever, could possibly come up with. We should have a type of government that's more in line with how people actually are, not based upon some freshmen philosophy majors' unrealistic ideal dreamed up as a way to avoid paying taxes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
You do not know the definitions of those words, clearly. You just believe whatever the violent gang tells you. You think a gang is legitimate if the majority approves.
You simply make false distinctions to make your shackles feel lighter upon your wrists.
I think I do, better than you. You've either out of ignorance or with purpose conflated the concepts of mob rule and majoritarianism, they are not the same thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
Again, look who has obviously never read Smith, Locke, Bacon, Voltaire, etc... your ignorance to the ideas of natural law and human rights is LAUGHABLE.
Again, just embrace the truth, you believe in mob rule. You have no concept of human rights and natural law of which they are based upon. You don't think it exists.
You simply do not believe in freedom, it is just a feel-good buzzword to you.
No, what's laughable are your unrealistic, unworkable ideas.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
So you think this is false:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government."
lol
The man who wrote those words did so on behalf of an ersatz government that you didn't consent to!
Too funny.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
You can't give my consent, no matter how many people are on your side. Can the majority of people give consent to sex for a woman who does not agree?
lol
Now comparing your "plight" to a woman being raped? You are THE drama queen, aren't you? I like how you portray yourself as educated and well-read and then resort to overwrought, ridiculous comparisons that would've made a Victorian pulp novelist blush.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN HUMAN FREEDOM, PERIOD. Read some damn Locke, the whole concept is based on natural law, which you don't believe exists.
I do, I just don't consent to you defining it for me using your very own freshman philosophy major definition.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
Calling you out for an obvious fallacy is not a dodge, you would understand if you knew the definitions of the words you use.
The IRS is NOT the gang, they are PART of it, DUH! It is hilarious how simple it is to fool you by having different departments.
This is like saying that the Don of a mafia is not violent because their enforcers take care of the dirty work.
lol
Weak, weak, weak.
How many people have been shot for not paying their taxes in the United States?
Come on, freshman philosophy major, try dealing in actual facts and not the world of your imagination where you get to define already in-use words any way you want. How many?
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
Look, commentary on your understanding of the philosophy of government and freedom.
lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
Ha ha ha! Your ignorance to natural law and human rights shows again... read the people who came up with the concepts so you stop embarrassing yourself.
Your government is predicated on violence and you endorse any violence approved by the majority. You are the perfect subject, but you are not a free man.
Look at you devolving into insults because you can't argue the concepts... two can play that game, you are childish, immature, etc...
lol
Let's do this again.
You don't understand:
1. The difference between a mob and a majority in a democratic form of government
2. The difference between a government and a private citizen
3. The difference between a violent criminal gang and the government
4. The difference between natural law and actual law (one--actual law, is real; the other you could write down and if you wrote it down on soft enough paper, I might be able to use it as toilet paper, that's about all it's fit for)
5. Apparently, what constitutes "violence."
6. The fact that basic human nature makes your ideal government an absolute impossibility in real terms. As I said, and you have yet to counter, no government will ever have 100% of the people agree with 100% of the laws. EVER.
7. What people are actually referring to when they use the term "rule of law." They're not talking about philosophical dribbling, they're talking about actual laws passed by actual legitimate governments consistently and fairly enforced.
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Originally Posted by Xander_Crews
You don't need my consent to rule over me, don't care what I think about it, and you think you believe in human freedom? HA HA HA!
I never said government had to grant me ANYTHING, you made that up... of course, you already admitted that your government is predicated on violence against those who don't agree with it, which was my original point... so you already lost.
Actually, you say the government must bend to your every whim. To you, it's not legit unless you agree. You're demanding they cater to you. And as I've already said, your little philosophy can't come up with an answer to the simple fact that no government will have agreement from 100% of the people for 100% of its laws. It's an impossibility.
Actually, you say the government must bend to your every whim. To you, it's not legit unless you agree. You're demanding they cater to you. And as I've already said, your little philosophy can't come up with an answer to the simple fact that no government will have agreement from 100% of the people for 100% of its laws. It's an impossibility.
Keep making positions up for other people, it really helps your credibility... and you called me immature.
Oh and thank you for your silly comments about "natural prosecutors" and such, again you prove that you have never read the material that our government is based on. If you did, you would understand that it DOES account for complete consent. Regardless, this thread is not about the philosophical basing of government.
You admitted that the government's tool for enforcement us ultimately violence, which was my original point, again, you loose the argument you started.
This last paragraph highlights your laughable lack of knowledge on the subject. You obviously confuse positive and negative rights.
I don't have time to filter through your childish insults and MADE UP positions.... and again, it is NOT what this thread is about.
All my claims are true, you don't believe in the consent of the governed, you admitted that. You do not believe in natural law (the basis of human freedom) not only did you admit it, you openly mock the idea of natural law.
You are an authoritarian, plain and simple.
I made a comment about using the threat of violence to collect taxes, you said no violence was involved, I proved you wrong and you admitted that the threat of violence is used, but it is justified. It doesn't matter if you think it is justified, you admitted my original point was true.
You loose again. (Stay on topic this time)
Last edited by Xander_Crews; 07-14-2014 at 01:29 AM..
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