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What I don't like about this whole war story is the balance of the expenses and the outcomes. Actually, no balance - there has been a huge amount of money spent and lives of our guys given, but as a result, we have the threat that is even larger than had been before we started everything.
And the other, no that obvious outcome, is that we as a nation are losing our credit in the world. People don't see us as liberators anymore, we've become a threat ourselves.
We haven't been liberators since WW2. Describing the American people as "liberators" is incredibly off the mark. We're not liberators...we're a nation playing world cop imperialist and inserting military hegemony where diplomacy and trade should be.
Even worse, if you are unhappy because history records the truth, simply rewrite history to reflect what you wish had happened instead of what really did happen. (See nonsenseguy's post for a perfect illustration of that.)
You mean like how democrats were saying there were WMD in Iraq during the Clinton years on into the Bush years but once troops were there they suddenly had selective amnesia.
But that's not really the point is it? I think there's plenty of blame to go around. America doesn't go to war at the whim of any single person. The point is what to do now. We've removed troops and just like was predicted chaos ensued. Now what?
It's great that everyone is enjoying Prince music right now (When Doves Cry) and their new-found 20/20 vision. Unfortunately that doesn't really do much for stability in the region.
I understand you want to cut and run and stick your fingers in your ears and that's your choice. It would seem though that if you break something you should at least try to assist in repairing what you broke.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
You mean like how democrats were saying there were WMD in Iraq during the Clinton years on into the Bush years but once troops were there they suddenly had selective amnesia.
Why is there any reason to believe it was a static situation and what was during the Clinton years would be the same during the Bush years? Besides, 9/11 should have changed our threat assessments around the world and Iraq ranked very low on that list..
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
But that's not really the point is it? I think there's plenty of blame to go around. America doesn't go to war at the whim of any single person. The point is what to do now. We've removed troops and just like was predicted chaos ensued. Now what?
Iraqis had the chance to build something and chose chaos instead, let them deal with it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
It's great that everyone is enjoying Prince music right now (When Doves Cry) and their new-found 20/20 vision. Unfortunately that doesn't really do much for stability in the region.
What reason is there to believe the US could ever do anything about instability in an unstable region?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475
I understand you want to cut and run and stick your fingers in your ears and that's your choice. It would seem though that if you break something you should at least try to assist in repairing what you broke.
If you haven't managed to fix what you broke in 10+ tears chances are you never will.
What's appalling is that the U.S. invaded a sovereign nation for no reason.
No reason you're aware, or no reason you can understand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJude514
There was never anything this administration could have done to salvage the mess that was created by the previous administration.
The original mess was created by Winston Churchill.
Obama could have fixed that....and he can still fix it....he just doesn't wanna, and it doesn't matter, since he is not allowed to fix it, because the Neo-Cons he picked to be on his White House Staff won't let him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJude514
Wait, wait, wait!! Are you saying we didn't invade Iraq because they were a direct and imminent threat to us and mushroom clouds and yellowcake and test tubes and WMDs and bringing democracy and freedom and mom and apple pie to the Iraqis??? Are you saying we did it for the petrodollar???
Some people have always known that. It's not my fault people drink the WMD Kool-Aid®.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJude514
I am shocked, I tell you, shocked, that GWB would lie us into such a mess!!
But hey, let's blame it all on Obama...
Obama invaded Libya for the same reason Bush invaded Iraq.....the Petro-Dollar.
How's it working out for Ambassador Stevens and people in Libya?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679
I think we need a real challenge... Let's go after Iran next, kay?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Threerun
Mkay! What do they have? Nukes? Bio? Poor peasants we can bomb the ever living sh*t out of?
Yes, they launched an oil bourse (pronounced "nuke" in Hebrew).
In addition to the Petro-Dollar, Iran proves air, highway and rail access to the 5 Central Asian States, from the Persian Gulf, Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean.
Quote:
Originally Posted by odanny
And as previously noted, Iraq was lost once we broke it, and that happened during the Shock and Awe nonsense that was to be followed by us being "greeted as liberators".
That is an incorrect assessment.
Iraq was lost the minute Churchill created it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMORE
.... but didn't Saddam refuse to allow inspectors to truly search for WMD's?
No, Saddam refused to allow inspectors to search places where no WMDs (snicker) could possibly be.
These inspection teams have intelligence agents on them from different States. They wanted access to those facilities for purposes of target analysis, not searching for WMDs (snicker).
Think "elephant." Inspectors: We want to search your fridge for an elephant. You: What? An elephant can't even fit in my refrigerator Inspectors: You're hiding something! Attack! Attack!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BMORE
Anyways, the 'no reason' notion isn't true, we went in for the security of the dollar and it was 'justified' by the Carter Doctrine. Do I believe there were other ways about switching Iraq back to the dollar?
No....not with France and Germany willing to deal with Iraq.
I'm guessing people forgot Congress officially changed the name of "French Fries" to "American Fries."
The French and Germans knew the US was there to switch Iraq back to the US Dollar...that's why they were angry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by remoddahouse
Obama was largely following through on the plan that Bush had already put in place.
So you admit Obama is incompetent and bereft of common sense to form his own plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by remoddahouse
The only thing stopping that sectarian violence was one rather maniacal guy with an iron grip on the country.
Or autonomy.
Since the Sunni Ottoman Turks were able to maintain peace for more than 800 years, I guess they're a helluva lot smarter than you all.
A person with an IQ 85 would have the common sense to look at history and what the Ottomans did.
What does that say about Obama?
Quote:
Originally Posted by remoddahouse
There's a reason why HW didn't topple Saddam. The people advising W thought that democracy would flourish in a place with little history of democracy, none of the institutions to support democracy, with different sects that largely hate and distrust each other and in a part of the world which is rather violent.
There is a history of democracy. They do have institutions, even though they are not exactly identical in every way shape and form to the institutions you know and love.
The hate and distrust did not exist prior to the involvement of the US and Brits....you created that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper in Dallas
You must have watched a different Frontline than the one I watched, it pointed out the issues before we ever invaded, showed how the Bush administration made mistake after mistake and basically said what some have been saying all along that destabilizing Iraq was a bad idea and that it is now the problem for the People of Iraq to resolve.
Some people are intellectually limited and unable to exercise foresight. Worse than that, they operate on baseless assumptions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeyJude514
How could taking out a regime, with no plan afterwards of how to fill the inevitable power vacuum that would result, ever be considered a win?
Then why didn't the Brilliant Harvard Lawyer formulate a plan for success?
Is Obama too incompetent to handle such matters?
Or is Obama too narcissistic to admit that he's incompetent and seek out professionals to formulate a plan for him?
The conclusion that is drawn is irrelevant to the premises; it misses the point.
This has nothing to do with US oil consumption or US dependence or use of any oils or the few remaining US oil companies.
US Energy Policy is a non-factor. If the US never needed a drop of oil, the US would still have invaded Iraq.
Why?
This is about E C O N O M I C S.....specifically to wit: Monetary Policy.
What backs the US Dollar? It was gold. What happened in 1974 (well, technically 1973)?
The Left-Wing Trotskyites who formed the Young People's Socialist League and then merged with the Social Democrats who were then re-branded as Neo-Conservatives in 1974, took you off of the Gold Standard and put you on the Oil Standard....the Petro-Dollar.
The Soviets can buy more gold, but the Soviets cannot produce more oil without slitting their own throats.
After WWII, the US Dollar became the de facto currency of international trade.
The Trotskyists like Irving Kristol -- the godfather of Neo-Conservatism -- and his son William Kristol and Henry Kissinger and numerous others created a new Geo-Political Strategy based on the Petro-Dollar.
That requires the US to control the flow of oil.
The US does not need to drill for oil, or frack for oil or explore for oil or own oil fields....the US doesn't even need oil companies.....
....it just needs control of the Point-of-Sale for oil and natural gas.
Um, like Ukraine.
And Iraq, Iran, Libya, Syria, etc etc etc.
With oil and natural gas backing the US Dollar, the US can manipulate the economies of other States, like the Soviet Union....which almost immediately suffered economic turmoil and continued to suffer until its demise.
This chart explains everything......
Each and every time a foreign State exercises its right to Self-Determination and Freedom of Choice by rejecting the exclusive use of US Dollars to trade internationally, your Standard of Living is knocked down a notch.
Bush did not lie when he said the reason for invading Iraq is to maintain the American Way of Life.
He was referring to maintaining the incredibly high Standard of Living to which you are accustomed.
Yeah, that's right...you can dumb it down to "Bush invaded Iraq so I can have an i-Phone."
It's like this:
1] Your incredibly high Standard of Living is inextricably linked in part to the value of the US Dollar....globally.....as it relates to other currencies.
2] the value of the US Dollar is inextricably linked to global demand for US Dollars to conduct international trade --- corn, wheat, soy, cotton, linen, flaxen, bauxite, iron, tin, copper, lead, selenium, titanium, a thousand other commodities and the two big ticket items: Oil & Natural Gas.....which have the highest volume or quantity and highest prices.
3] a decrease in global demand for US Dollars weakens the US Dollar and reduces your Standard of Living.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckmann
Finally ... 40 minutes later, I was able to convince my computer to stop fighting with me and let me watch the whole program. It was excellent.
Did you use the MicroSoft Mind-Trick on it?
Technically...
What makes all of that worse is that we went in there to get the "WMD's" out of Saddam's hands, but they were fictional.
They weren't fictional, and we (Democrats and Republicans) agreed on that. We knew he had used chemical weapons on his on people. He had an active WMD program. We know that.
The only question is: Where did they end up? Syria? He had plenty of warning, and time to get rid of them.
And there it is, the latest rightwing fiction about Iraq. Everything was going SOOOO well in Iraq. The invasion had turned the country into a garden spot of the Middle East, democracy was flourishing, infrastructure we destroyed had magically rebuilt itself, electricity was flowing again...until Obama came along and wantonly destroyed it all.
Funniest part of this fiction is that Obama was just following the timeline set by Bush, the architect of this mess. But nonsense guy will stick his fingers in his ears and pretend not to hear that.
That's your make believe. Not mine. No, it wasn't paradise. But we controlled the air space, and as long as the U.S. maintained a presence, the terrorists were not in control. The Iraqi people were better off with the U.S. presence than they are now, where they are no better off than under Saddam Hussein. Thank you, Obama, for your "wisdom".
Essentially that's what's wrong with our country. Everyone is too proud to own up to any mistake. It's easier on one's emotions to blame the guy who inherited the mess than to accept that one is culpable for it.
That's convenient rhetoric. If we disagree with your assessment, we are not "owning up to any mistake."
But what has Obama done? Compare the state of the Middle East now with the state of the Middle East when Bush left office. Who made the greater mess (and I don't agree that Bush left Obama a "mess"). Obama turned it into a complete disaster by supporting the so-called Arab Spring, pulling out of Iraq and allowing Iran to control the air space; and then there is the Libya disaster, created entirely by Obama the genius.
If anyone won't own up to any mistakes, it is Obama. He can do not wrong.
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Losing Iraq
