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Old 08-03-2014, 09:38 PM
 
1,138 posts, read 1,038,022 times
Reputation: 623

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
Economists are actually divided on the issue. The devil is in the details though and economists usually look at the net result, which is why so many were against the original Bush tax cuts. Raising the min wage above what it should be would normally result in job losses, but does not necessarily result in job losses.

For example:

"Of the 13 states that increased their minimum wage in early 2014, all but one (New Jersey) are seeing employment gains. Furthermore, nine of the remaining 12 states are above the median for this period. The average change in employment for the 13 states that increased their minimum wage is +0.99% while the remaining states have an average employment change of +0.68%."

http://www.cepr.net/images/stories/b...2014-06-30.jpg
Interesting graph, but nowhere does it show respectable economist input or the effects that raising the minimum wage has on inflation and long term job growth. Also it should be mentioned that the Department of Labor no longer reports on net job loss and has become an arm for the Obama administration (much like the IRS) which has been in favor of pushing for an increase in the minimum wage across the board.

You can read about this here: Obama's Minimum Wage Data Leads to a Misleading Conclusion - US News

Your graph is also taken from the Congressional Budget Office which focuses exclusively on Federal jobs, not so much the private sector. Of course Government jobs are not going to have negative job loss due to increasing the minimum wage, the Government does not have to worry about competition or selling a product, they are not a business and do not produce anything to the GDP. Also, certain states have larger economies than others, meaning that they will always have more jobs reported. California has a bigger population than say Utah, certainly it will have larger job numbers, however that doesn't mean that California's economy is necessarily healthier than Utah's or that it is producing jobs at a better rate. Most small businesses that start up in California flee to other states in a matter of a couple years, the only real stable employers in the state are the Tech Industry, Hollywood, and Agriculture.

Here's the source for your graph-http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

Let's look at some reputable experts in the business field think shall we?

The Minimum Wage Delusion, And The Death Of Common Sense - Forbes

The Record Is Clear: Minimum Wage Hikes Destroy Jobs - Forbes

We are already seeing record job loss and a massive increase in the already high cost of living city of Seattle now that they recently raised their minimum wage to $15 an hour. It's estimated to soon become the most expensive city in the country now, even beating out San Francisco, Honolulu, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Manhattan.

Seattle's Upcoming $15 Minimum Wage Is Already KIlling Jobs, Cutting Benefits | Heartlander Magazine

You cannot show me any successful economy that has not died off after it continued to raise it's minimum wage. Detroit was the first city that kept raising their minimum wage to extreme amounts due to Union pressure, and look what happened? That's going to be the future of Seattle and all these other cities that keep pushing and pushing for a forced wage increase.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Ohio
24,623 posts, read 19,075,333 times
Reputation: 21738
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
??? Are you unfamiliar with the concept of wage slavery?
Yes, I was instructed by the Easter Bunny and the Great Pumpkin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
OMG are you freaking kidding?

A free market would adequately house an additional 25,000 low-income residents - at densities not allowed under existing government supply controls.
No....you live in a fantasy world. Let me explain to you how this works.

In a hallucination far, far away, there are no Zoning Laws....

Mircea buys 8 acres of land and builds a nice ranch house on it. It's valued at $160,000. Absentee-landlord buys land adjacent to Mircea's property; hires broke-dicks to build cheap super-small- mini-efficiencies; hires JOKE Management to manage the property; and then all kinds of losers like freemkt move in.

County tax assessor comes round and tells Mircea his property is now valued at $10,000 thanks to the 3rd World Heroin Crack Ghetto next-door.

Mircea files a lawsuit naming the absentee-landlord, the property management company, and every tenant, holding the jointly and severally liable for damages.

Mircea is entitled to $150,000 in real damages, $450,000 in statutory damages, and is seeking $1 Million to $10 Million in punitive damages, plus costs, and also injunctive relief.

During the depositions, Mircea obtains the location of all tenants bank accounts, bank account numbers and employers, and automobiles and then immediately files a lien notice against the banks and of all tenants, including those who do not have bank accounts and instead use debit cards, plus notifies all lien holders on all automobiles. Tenants are limited in the amount of money they can spend and must seek court approval to withdraw large sums of cash.

Mircea wins summary judgment and immediately seizes all bank accounts and debit cards, plus initiates the process to begin garnisheeing wage from the tenants. The repo man comes and seizes all vehicles not held by a bank.

The property management company settles out of court, and the absentee-landlord transfers deed and title in lieu of payment.

Mircea evicts all the tenants and all buildings are bull-dozed.


Now we are back to Square 1.

The only difference now, is that in addition to Mircea's property having its value restored, he also owns all the land adjacent to his property.

That is a stupid waste of everyone's valuable time, and precious tax-payer monies and resources......Zoning Laws pre-empt such stupidity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
The people arguing that folks shouldn't make a living wage, are also the same people that will be all shocked when the people not making a living wage while working hard get upset about it.
Scare Tactic

If you suppose that terrorizing your opponent is giving him a reason for believing that you are correct, then you are using a scare tactic and reasoning fallaciously.

Good.....government drones will kill then easier when they're all in one place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeadSpeak View Post
Or they'll complain about them being on welfare
Welfare isn't necessary. It's incumbent upon you to prove that it is. To the extent that it might possibly be necessary, the federal government is the most costly and least efficient administering welfare benefits, resulting in many welfare recipients being over-compensated, while other welfare recipients gain no advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Sorry but no. "free market based solutions" always work in a perfect world where everyone has perfect information. Its a horrifically poor thing to depend upon for equitable results, or even optimal results in the real world.
Hypostatization

The error of inappropriately treating an abstract term as if it were a concrete one

That has nothing to do with the Free Market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
Not raising the minimum wage,...
Thanks for proving yet again you have no understanding of Inflation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by greywar View Post
.... and allowing unchecked wealth inequality.....
There is no "Wealth Inequality."

Thanks for proving yet again that you have no understanding of Inflation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lycos679 View Post
For example:

"Of the 13 states that increased their minimum wage in early 2014, all but one (New Jersey) are seeing employment gains. Furthermore, nine of the remaining 12 states are above the median for this period. The average change in employment for the 13 states that increased their minimum wage is +0.99% while the remaining states have an average employment change of +0.68%."

http://www.cepr.net/images/stories/b...2014-06-30.jpg
Um, this is the first week of August.

It's Economics. The impact of minimum wage --- positive or negative --- cannot be readily seen. To raise the minimum and then claim a week later there are no effects is absurd. Same with Obamacare. The nutters were screaming it's January 3 and the sky hasn't fallen. Why would it? It will take 6 to 18 months for the negative effects to start showing up.

Econo-legally...

Mircea
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:37 PM
 
11,768 posts, read 10,226,700 times
Reputation: 3444
Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican View Post
Interesting graph, but nowhere does it show respectable economist input or the effects that raising the minimum wage has on inflation and long term job growth.
That's because the graph is not a prediction, it's a summary of what happened over the last 7 months.

Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican View Post
Also it should be mentioned that the Department of Labor no longer reports on net job loss and has become an arm for the Obama administration (much like the IRS) which has been in favor of pushing for an increase in the minimum wage across the board.

You can read about this here: Obama's Minimum Wage Data Leads to a Misleading Conclusion - US News
Did you even read that article? The article is claiming that if you adjust the time period to one month and exclude December the states that raised min wage saw lower job growth. Talk about cherry picking data! Almost every state examined had to deal with an abnormally cold winter.

The argument for looking at one month was the start date for the min wage increase, but Ohio, Missouri, Montana, Florida, Oregon, Washington, Nevada, & Colorado all have their min wage tied to the COL and have since 2006 - some of the states had the min wage tied to COL as early as 2001, but most enacted the law take effect in 2006.

Besides, the report did not even claim what those writers think it claimed. Nowhere in the report did anyone state that raising the min wage increase employment, just that min wage increases do not necessarily lead to job losses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican View Post
Your graph is also taken from the Congressional Budget Office which focuses exclusively on Federal jobs, not so the private sector. Of course Government jobs are not going to have negative job loss due to increasing the minimum wage, the Government does not have to worry about competition or selling a product, they are not a business and do not produce anything to the GDP. Also, certain states have larger economies than others, meaning that they will always have more jobs reported. California has a bigger population than say Utah, certainly it will have larger job numbers, however that doesn't mean that California's economy is necessarily healthier than Utah's or that it is producing jobs at a better rate. Most small businesses that start up in California flee to other states in a matter of a couple years, the only real stable employers in the state are the Tech Industry, Hollywood, and Agriculture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican View Post
Here's the source for your graph-http://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995
Actually this is the source of my graph, but the CBO does in fact focus on private sector jobs, almost exclusively in fact. The purpose of the CBO is to take data and crunch it, sometimes they examine what the efect of government policies will be, but unless they are asked to exclude the private sector, they include the private sector.

2014 Job Creation Faster in States that Raised the Minimum Wage | CEPR Blog

The CBO study you linked predicted a loss of 500K jobs if min wage was raised to $10.10, but that didn't happen. I was surprised because I was expecting at least one state to get it wrong, but I'm not about to start claiming a conspiracy is taking place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican View Post
Let's look at some reputable experts in the business field think shall we?

The Minimum Wage Delusion, And The Death Of Common Sense - Forbes

The Record Is Clear: Minimum Wage Hikes Destroy Jobs - Forbes

We are already seeing record job loss and a massive increase in the already high cost of living city of Seattle now that they recently raised their minimum wage to $15 an hour. It's estimated to soon become the most expensive city in the country now, even beating out San Francisco, Honolulu, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Manhattan.

Seattle's Upcoming $15 Minimum Wage Is Already KIlling Jobs, Cutting Benefits | Heartlander Magazine

You cannot show me any successful economy that has not died off after it continued to raise it's minimum wage.
Um, San Fransisco has the highest min wage and had the fastest job growth... Like I said though, the devil is in the details. Raising the min wage in San Fransisco is different than raising it in El Paso or New Orleans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by West Coast Republican View Post
Detroit was the first city that kept raising their minimum wage to extreme amounts due to Union pressure, and look what happened? That's going to be the future of Seattle and all these other cities that keep pushing and pushing for a forced wage increase.
Detroit was a one trick pony with just the auto industry and their (auto industry) decline was tied to poor management. German auto makers produce more cars, pay their employees more, and are more profitable than American car makers. So this idea that just having a union or having a wage increase is going to be your downfall needs to die a quick death. GM would love to be in VW's place right now even with the higher compensation.

But let's say you are right, let's say that these cities/states will see rampant crime, poverty, job losses, drugs, HS dropouts, etc from increasing the min wage. So what? Let them reap what they sow. It's one thing to oppose a min wage increase on a national scale since there are over 1300 individual economies in the USA, but it's quite another to oppose any min wage increase anywhere - that just makes you seem petty.

Last edited by lycos679; 08-03-2014 at 11:04 PM..
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:46 PM
 
11,768 posts, read 10,226,700 times
Reputation: 3444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post

Um, this is the first week of August.

It's Economics. The impact of minimum wage --- positive or negative --- cannot be readily seen. To raise the minimum and then claim a week later there are no effects is absurd. Same with Obamacare. The nutters were screaming it's January 3 and the sky hasn't fallen. Why would it? It will take 6 to 18 months for the negative effects to start showing up.

Econo-legally...

Mircea
The poster I was responding to was claiming that all respectable economists oppose the min wage, which isn't true, they are divided on min wage. Most research I've read indicates that raising the min wage costs jobs, but with a few caveats. You could raise the min wage by 100% in ND without having any ill effects, but you could not do the same in IL.
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Old 08-03-2014, 10:52 PM
 
Location: USA
13,255 posts, read 12,085,441 times
Reputation: 4228
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philosophizer View Post
And how would you define a living wage?
I would say yes. And a living wage is the ability to pay for housing, transportation, food,.. the basics and a little more.


I think its up to the FED to help make that happen. I don't believe they are doing a good job at it.
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Old 08-04-2014, 06:52 AM
 
17,389 posts, read 11,917,005 times
Reputation: 16136
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
??? I actually have ensconced myself in an online niche where imperfect information allows me to use my superior knowledge of this niche to profitably buy and flip items. I built my inventory from nothing to 3,000 items ($10K retail) in 10 years. With some actual cash on hand I could buy larger lots and collections and make even more money. What I have would have little value and be very difficult to sell before the internet and before eBay and Amazon, they have created a global market where only tiny local markets previously existed. There is no current price guide and my database is 10 times larger than the last price guide which was released in the '90s.

Haven't seen Tiny House Nation but I'm familiar with the concept.
If these items are as hot an item as you believe, you would need zero square feet. The product would sell as quickly as it was put up for sale.
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Old 08-04-2014, 07:29 AM
 
9,790 posts, read 7,599,691 times
Reputation: 24357
Quote:
Originally Posted by freemkt View Post
Room = $500.mo. still not affordable to approx the kiwest-earning 10 percent. I rent a room in a house with four others and I pay 52 percent of my income for rent.
I've never seen you mention your marital status, but if you married a nice person with a job, you'd double your family income but your housing costs wouldn't necessarily double. I know couples who have rented rooms. Just a thought.

Many families in California also pay over half their income to housing - but it's their choice to live there.

I don't believe we should set living wages or require landlords to offer low income housing. There are many great places to live in the US that have a lower cost of living. City Data is a great place to research that.
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Old 08-04-2014, 08:12 AM
 
13,817 posts, read 5,527,336 times
Reputation: 8505
Workers are entitled to whatever wage they negotiate for when they accept the job of their own free will, assuming they satisfy their end of the employment bargain by doing what they are paid to do.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:41 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,350,624 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
If these items are as hot an item as you believe, you would need zero square feet. The product would sell as quickly as it was put up for sale.

Not really because for best prices realized, a standard seven-day auction with multiple pictures and a detailed description is the optimal way to list for the ~$10 items; the $2 items need only a single picture and minimal description. The listings can be time-consuming but profitable for the higher-priced items.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:47 AM
 
33,016 posts, read 27,350,624 times
Reputation: 9074
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaraG View Post
I've never seen you mention your marital status, but if you married a nice person with a job, you'd double your family income but your housing costs wouldn't necessarily double. I know couples who have rented rooms. Just a thought.

Many families in California also pay over half their income to housing - but it's their choice to live there.

I don't believe we should set living wages or require landlords to offer low income housing. There are many great places to live in the US that have a lower cost of living. City Data is a great place to research that.

I'm not married but I have a very dear friend with whom I am looking for a place to rent; that is the most likely outcome but either of us has enough cash or credit right now to qualify.
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