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Old 11-02-2006, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 596,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
ALOT of people would be complaining right now if we had done nothing and one of his bombs came knocking on our door or their door for that matter ( other countries) then of course they would have expected our help.. Yes we are a trusting country, something we shouldnt do now, they all seem to turn thier backs and forget how much we have helped alot of different countries in their time of need, yet no one has our backs.
Hi,

You presume that Saddam was inches away from having a bomb "knocking on our door". I don't understand the metaphor but I'll try to make a counterpoint, but with advanced apologies it won't be anything that's not been said before.

There are plenty of countries that would like to do harm to us, and a dare say that many have more capability to do so than Iraq did. N. Korea has been aching to do it for 50 years. You know the cast of characters: Iran, Cuba, Syria,... All of these countries are in the thrall of dictators. All of these countries are dangerous. So why aren't we sending our sons and ordinance to all these places as well? Simple. Even a hyperpower like the USA doesn't have the wherewithal to take on the whole world. And in spite of our hubris, yes, we still do need allies.

You make a point that countries forget what the US did for them. As an American abroad I can offer a bit of perspective. The view from this side of the Atlantic is not so black and white. You may be surprised to know that, at least in Europe, they *do* remember what the US did. In fact, you'll find the majority of European opinion is that America today is a country that was once a champion of justice but has now come unhinged. If anything, the Europeans would say that America turned it's back on them, not the other way around.

A lot of countries also remember what we Americans like to forget. Like our assistance in overthrowing and assassinating a democratically-elected president in Chile. Or our taxpayer funds financing death squads in El Salvador. Call me an America-hater (which I'm not), call my unpatriotic (which I'm not), but the same hands that rebuilt Europe with the Marshall Plan have have also been in some very dirty places indeed. This is the way things are. At the very least we can be honest enough to ourselves to acknowledge that.

I'll step off the soapbox now and let someone else have a go. This is a very engaging discussion. I hope it stays civil enough to keep going.
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Old 11-02-2006, 02:50 PM
 
11,602 posts, read 17,594,260 times
Reputation: 17351
Quote:
Originally Posted by fish2026 View Post
The funny thing is Saddam hated Al-Queda and threw them out of his country- he was against religious radicals of all sorts. Now many many more people have died because of our incursion- way more than Saddam is accused of killing.
Oh well no wonder everyone hates us
These threads progress and get off topic, but this is better than a consipracy kook theory...

Sol I can respond to this one. Lets clarify Saddam's stand on Islamic Extremest. The easiest answer is he was against them when it was convenient for him to be against it, such as when they threatened his authority or power, and he was for them when it was convenient to be for them, such as when he was trying to court Arab support before the invasion of Iraq. He was a user and a player, and he wouldn't hesitate to use any extremist group to his advantage.

People have short memories. Lets not forget that it was well publicized that he was giving monetary awards to families of terrorists in Palestine who would go over to Israel to suicide bomb a school bus. It was well publicized because Saddam himself publicized it. Also people forget that the suspect of the 1st terrorist bombing of the World Trade Center in the 90's (and I know about it because I was there) were Iraqi and of course returned to Iraq after the bombing.

People forget about Saddam. He used weapons of mass destruction, he tried to assasinate a president, he invaded 2 countries, we had to have 50,000 troops and spent billions of dolalrs a year since 1991 just to contain him. What would the middle east look like if we didn't invade and he was still in power? It's very likely that things would be worse, and oh boy yes there are worse things than a casualty rate for this current conflict that is lower than a single average WW2 battle. Saddam had to go, there was no doubt about it.

Why everyone hates us, hmmmm, well that is a topic in itself. I personally think it is more related to the disolution of the Soviet Union in the late 80's and the end of the cold war myself. Western Europe didn't need us as a security blanket anymore, 3rd world countries couldn't play on our rivalry with the USSR anymore, etc. Suddenly the US label went from "The Country that saved the world from democracy" to "Imparialistic and arrogant". Like I said people have short memories.
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:08 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,696 posts, read 3,063,943 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbmouse View Post
Oh, I didn't say anything about not questioning the government when one believes something fishy is going on. Like Water Gate, how funds are being spent, etc. But to try to say that the events of such magnitude of 9/11 were a conpsericy.....sorry but in my opinion, that is unpatriotic. Our people were attacked, our government responded with trying to end terrorism or at least let the rest of the world know "Not on our soil" and you try to say our government staged it all? Sorry, my opinion, unpatriotic.
Let me guess, you also believe the conspiracy Bush created Katrina to wipe out New Orleans?
So if I'm intepreting this correctly, then, only debating issues that YOU decide aren't off-limits is okay? Being a City-Data moderator must carry some special powers

I've articulated my reasons for suspicion on another thread, so there's no reason to get into it again here. The bottom line is that when I put together the Government Version of 9/11 and what has happened in foreign and domestic policy since, I got a case of cognitive dissonance that I can't ignore and don't feel I should have to ignore without having my "American-ness" called into question. All I care about is the truth. If it turns out that the government IS telling the truth, then great. Life goes on. But if there are circumstances behind 9/11 that I don't know about and they are shaping our current world situation, then I want to know about them.

If you are comfortable with the conventional wisdom regarding 9/11, then I don't have a problem with that. I just don't agree with you- yet. Maybe someday I will, as new information comes to light. Maybe I won't. But for you (or anyone) to call me less of an American because of my opinions is demeaning, insulting, and intellectually dishonest.
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,728,560 times
Reputation: 2096
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
These threads progress and get off topic, but this is better than a consipracy kook theory...

Sol I can respond to this one. Lets clarify Saddam's stand on Islamic Extremest. The easiest answer is he was against them when it was convenient for him to be against it, such as when they threatened his authority or power, and he was for them when it was convenient to be for them, such as when he was trying to court Arab support before the invasion of Iraq. He was a user and a player, and he wouldn't hesitate to use any extremist group to his advantage.

People have short memories. Lets not forget that it was well publicized that he was giving monetary awards to families of terrorists in Palestine who would go over to Israel to suicide bomb a school bus. It was well publicized because Saddam himself publicized it. Also people forget that the suspect of the 1st terrorist bombing of the World Trade Center in the 90's (and I know about it because I was there) were Iraqi and of course returned to Iraq after the bombing.

People forget about Saddam. He used weapons of mass destruction, he tried to assasinate a president, he invaded 2 countries, we had to have 50,000 troops and spent billions of dolalrs a year since 1991 just to contain him. What would the middle east look like if we didn't invade and he was still in power? It's very likely that things would be worse, and oh boy yes there are worse things than a casualty rate for this current conflict that is lower than a single average WW2 battle. Saddam had to go, there was no doubt about it.

Why everyone hates us, hmmmm, well that is a topic in itself. I personally think it is more related to the disolution of the Soviet Union in the late 80's and the end of the cold war myself. Western Europe didn't need us as a security blanket anymore, 3rd world countries couldn't play on our rivalry with the USSR anymore, etc. Suddenly the US label went from "The Country that saved the world from democracy" to "Imparialistic and arrogant". Like I said people have short memories.


Well said, he did have to go, people like to play the what if game, we already know he is crazy and a dictator, why wait to see millions more murdered. I agree with most in saying it is time to move on from the war, we have done what needed to be done, now it is up to them to continue with good, if they choose to. We need to pull out, but slowly. Some only focus on the negetive things the US has done under other leadership, people need to also focus on the massive amounts of good we have done for other countries throughout the years, but I guess for some it is easier to trash the US.
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,696 posts, read 3,063,943 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
These threads progress and get off topic, but this is better than a consipracy kook theory...

Sol I can respond to this one. Lets clarify Saddam's stand on Islamic Extremest. The easiest answer is he was against them when it was convenient for him to be against it, such as when they threatened his authority or power, and he was for them when it was convenient to be for them, such as when he was trying to court Arab support before the invasion of Iraq. He was a user and a player, and he wouldn't hesitate to use any extremist group to his advantage.

People have short memories. Lets not forget that it was well publicized that he was giving monetary awards to families of terrorists in Palestine who would go over to Israel to suicide bomb a school bus. It was well publicized because Saddam himself publicized it. Also people forget that the suspect of the 1st terrorist bombing of the World Trade Center in the 90's (and I know about it because I was there) were Iraqi and of course returned to Iraq after the bombing.

People forget about Saddam. He used weapons of mass destruction, he tried to assasinate a president, he invaded 2 countries, we had to have 50,000 troops and spent billions of dolalrs a year since 1991 just to contain him. What would the middle east look like if we didn't invade and he was still in power? It's very likely that things would be worse, and oh boy yes there are worse things than a casualty rate for this current conflict that is lower than a single average WW2 battle. Saddam had to go, there was no doubt about it.

Why everyone hates us, hmmmm, well that is a topic in itself. I personally think it is more related to the disolution of the Soviet Union in the late 80's and the end of the cold war myself. Western Europe didn't need us as a security blanket anymore, 3rd world countries couldn't play on our rivalry with the USSR anymore, etc. Suddenly the US label went from "The Country that saved the world from democracy" to "Imparialistic and arrogant". Like I said people have short memories.
It sounds like your memory is a bit short, too. During the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan around 1980, who was it that funded, armed, and trained the insurgent movement? The United States. Who was that insurgent movement? What is known today as Al-Qaida. Politics does make strange bedfellows indeed.

As to why the world is increasingly distrustful (and in some cases hateful) of us- I beg to differ. Check out the PNAC- Plan for a New American Century. This is what drives our foreign policy. In a nutshell, it's a new world order that has America as the lone world superpower. Do you think the rest of the world resents that just a little bit? Add that to the fact that as far as the rest of the world is concerned, we no longer have the moral standing to be telling anyone else how to live, and you have a rest of the world that doesn't respect or like us very much anymore.

This is especially true in the Middle East. When you combine a century's worth of Anglo-Saxon imperialism, the creation of the Israeli state and all the conflict that has caused throughout the region, and our perceived meddling in their affairs through the support of Israel and the creation of secular puppet governments in Arab countries, you have a lot of angry folks and folkettes.
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Old 11-02-2006, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,696 posts, read 3,063,943 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
Well said, he did have to go, people like to play the what if game, we already know he is crazy and a dictator, why wait to see millions more murdered.
But what you are failing to see is that plenty of fair-minded citizens of other countries describe our president the exact same way. Not trashing America here- just saying that there's more than one side to every story. The rest of the world doesn't see us the same way we see us.
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Old 11-02-2006, 05:00 PM
 
11,602 posts, read 17,594,260 times
Reputation: 17351
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb919 View Post
As to why the world is increasingly distrustful (and in some cases hateful) of us- I beg to differ. Check out the PNAC- Plan for a New American Century. This is what drives our foreign policy. In a nutshell, it's a new world order that has America as the lone world superpower. Do you think the rest of the world resents that just a little bit? Add that to the fact that as far as the rest of the world is concerned, we no longer have the moral standing to be telling anyone else how to live, and you have a rest of the world that doesn't respect or like us very much anymore.

This is especially true in the Middle East. When you combine a century's worth of Anglo-Saxon imperialism, the creation of the Israeli state and all the conflict that has caused throughout the region, and our perceived meddling in their affairs through the support of Israel and the creation of secular puppet governments in Arab countries, you have a lot of angry folks and folkettes.

I don't actually disagree with anything you said. Our support for Afhiganistan I remember clearly but it is somewhat irrelevant and somewhat contradictory to this subject (in your logic then Al Quida should be thankful to us for helping them drive off the infidel Soviets), Islamic terrorism was very active in the 70's before that. Yes we are the sole world power, that is understood, and that is clearly a reason for alot of world resentment. As the world super power we are blamed for all the ills of the world, righty or wrongly. Yes the world does resent us for being a super power, and my response to anyone in the world that resents us for that would of course be "deal with it!".

Alot of people blame our support for Israel and again that is an issue in itself but how can you argue and take a nuetral side when you have one side who's political structure and policy is a democracy and the other side who's stated policy is to "drive Israel from the land" in other words to exterminate every man, woman, and child in Israel. Again, our support to Israel, and in the past Afiganistan as you mentioned, was to counterbalance Soviet aggression. Soviet sattelites were Syria, Iraq, etc. It was the right decision then, and the right decision now. Israel is a thriving and free economy and Syria is a military dictatorship with most of it's population living in poverty. Hey they picked the wrong side, don't blame us now. Actually if you study any of Al Quida or islamic extreemest literature it is Mecca, Saudi Arabia they are most concerned with - liberating Mecca, making the land between Saudi Arabia and Iran an Islamic totalitarian state, and destroying all vestiges of the infidels (that would be us) in the world. Isreal just happens to be a convenient rally point.
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Old 11-02-2006, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,696 posts, read 3,063,943 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dd714 View Post
I don't actually disagree with anything you said. Our support for Afhiganistan I remember clearly but it is somewhat irrelevant and somewhat contradictory to this subject (in your logic then Al Quida should be thankful to us for helping them drive off the infidel Soviets), Islamic terrorism was very active in the 70's before that. Yes we are the sole world power, that is understood, and that is clearly a reason for alot of world resentment. As the world super power we are blamed for all the ills of the world, righty or wrongly. Yes the world does resent us for being a super power, and my response to anyone in the world that resents us for that would of course be "deal with it!".

Alot of people blame our support for Israel and again that is an issue in itself but how can you argue and take a nuetral side when you have one side who's political structure and policy is a democracy and the other side who's stated policy is to "drive Israel from the land" in other words to exterminate every man, woman, and child in Israel. Again, our support to Israel, and in the past Afiganistan as you mentioned, was to counterbalance Soviet aggression. Soviet sattelites were Syria, Iraq, etc. It was the right decision then, and the right decision now. Israel is a thriving and free economy and Syria is a military dictatorship with most of it's population living in poverty. Hey they picked the wrong side, don't blame us now. Actually if you study any of Al Quida or islamic extreemest literature it is Mecca, Saudi Arabia they are most concerned with - liberating Mecca, making the land between Saudi Arabia and Iran an Islamic totalitarian state, and destroying all vestiges of the infidels (that would be us) in the world. Isreal just happens to be a convenient rally point.

Oh, I'm not passing judgment on whether or not our support of Israel is a good thing or not- I'm just trying to accurately paint a picture of how we're perceived. Like I was trying to say, politics makes for such bizarre alliances that make us look back and wonder how we could ever have been friendly with such-and-such. It makes me curious (or should it scare me to death) of who we will be aligned with in another 20 years down the road.
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:08 PM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,728,560 times
Reputation: 2096
Quote:
Originally Posted by mb919 View Post
But what you are failing to see is that plenty of fair-minded citizens of other countries describe our president the exact same way. Not trashing America here- just saying that there's more than one side to every story. The rest of the world doesn't see us the same way we see us.
I dont see us in a nice light either, but to only remember the negative is getting old.
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Old 11-02-2006, 07:24 PM
 
Location: Tucson, AZ
1,696 posts, read 3,063,943 times
Reputation: 1535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nea1 View Post
I dont see us in a nice light either, but to only remember the negative is getting old.
It's very old, and very discouraging. I've never remembered a time in my life where politics fired me up like it has now, and I've never remembered a time where division amongst ourselves has been so strong and harsh. But the only way for us to try to change it is to do what we can to shed light on how things really are. That's done through honest and open discussion and debate. Ignoring it and whistling past the graveyard will hurt much more than it will help in the long run.
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