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Old 08-22-2014, 01:32 PM
 
Location: San Francisco, CA
15,088 posts, read 13,449,172 times
Reputation: 14266

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It's because we Americans decided to go into Iraq and obliterate the leadership structure. And it's because we Americans decided to pursue anti-government destabilization in the Syrian civil war.

Now, to be clear, both Saddam and Assad were/are horrible people running despicable and oppressive governments that are hostile to America. Both would have required continued containment no matter what. But when you take out a regional power structure in a volatile area, you create a power vaccum...and someone/something will come to fill that void and establish a new balance of power. As we've seen, pushing a new democratic pro-Western government in a place like Iraq only appears to work for so long as you keep boots on the ground and a gun to everyone's head. Once you try to step out, the whole house of cards quickly falls apart.

We now face the specter of having to put boots back on the ground to counter a force stronger than Al Quaeda with more sophistication and capability to cause destruction well beyond its regional borders. The danger to us may never have been higher than it is now.

This is the true cost and lesson of the US invasions: beware of who you choose to topple, because unless you have the resources and resolve to wage an indefinite occupation on the ground, the devil you didn't know just may end up being worse than the one you did...and then you'll find yourself back at square one - or worse.
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
39,078 posts, read 51,224,761 times
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ISIS has its roots in centuries old sectarian strife and warfare and abuse of religious minorities. While our intervention did upset the apple cart, it is by no means the only reason for the rise of ISIS. The meltdown of the ME is a long overdue development. It will sort itself out in time and the solution will be much more durable if the US stays out of it.
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:41 PM
 
Location: A coal patch in Pennsyltucky
10,379 posts, read 10,661,869 times
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ISIS is on a roll, and will continue until they are defeated on the battlefield. They continue to get stronger and gain new recruits, many of whom have no choice but to join or die.
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
77,771 posts, read 104,726,020 times
Reputation: 49248
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
It's because we Americans decided to go into Iraq and obliterate the leadership structure. And it's because we Americans decided to pursue anti-government destabilization in the Syrian civil war.

Now, to be clear, both Saddam and Assad were/are horrible people running despicable and oppressive governments that are hostile to America. Both would have required continued containment no matter what. But when you take out a regional power structure in a volatile area, you create a power vaccum...and someone/something will come to fill that void and establish a new balance of power. As we've seen, pushing a new democratic pro-Western government in a place like Iraq only appears to work for so long as you keep boots on the ground and a gun to everyone's head. Once you try to step out, the whole house of cards quickly falls apart.

We now face the specter of having to put boots back on the ground to counter a force stronger than Al Quaeda with more sophistication and capability to cause destruction well beyond its regional borders. The danger to us may never have been higher than it is now.

This is the true cost and lesson of the US invasions: beware of who you choose to topple, because unless you have the resources and resolve to wage an indefinite occupation on the ground, the devil you didn't know just may end up being worse than the one you did...and then you'll find yourself back at square one - or worse.
My opinion, you are all wrong about what caused the ISIS sudden appearance. Yes, we probably should never have invaded Iraq; hindsight is a wonderful thing, but doesn't help after the fact. But they are not a new terrorist organization and they are totally inhuman. Regardless of whether we should or should not have been in Iraq they now need to be stopped. Or would most who oppose action prefer we wait until they do attack America. They are just like the Nazis, only if you believe the way they do can you live, as far as they are concerned.

What they are doing today, they would have done sooner or later, our involvement might have sped up their actions.
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:06 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,868 posts, read 24,386,012 times
Reputation: 8672
Quote:
Originally Posted by ambient View Post
It's because we Americans decided to go into Iraq and obliterate the leadership structure. And it's because we Americans decided to pursue anti-government destabilization in the Syrian civil war.

Now, to be clear, both Saddam and Assad were/are horrible people running despicable and oppressive governments that are hostile to America. Both would have required continued containment no matter what. But when you take out a regional power structure in a volatile area, you create a power vaccum...and someone/something will come to fill that void and establish a new balance of power. As we've seen, pushing a new democratic pro-Western government in a place like Iraq only appears to work for so long as you keep boots on the ground and a gun to everyone's head. Once you try to step out, the whole house of cards quickly falls apart.

We now face the specter of having to put boots back on the ground to counter a force stronger than Al Quaeda with more sophistication and capability to cause destruction well beyond its regional borders. The danger to us may never have been higher than it is now.

This is the true cost and lesson of the US invasions: beware of who you choose to topple, because unless you have the resources and resolve to wage an indefinite occupation on the ground, the devil you didn't know just may end up being worse than the one you did...and then you'll find yourself back at square one - or worse.
It takes a crazy person to control crazy people.

No, we'd have been much better off if we had left the region be in the 80's.

Technically, the United States backed Saddam Hussein. Rumsfeld meet him and shook his hand.
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,815,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
It takes a crazy person to control crazy people.

No, we'd have been much better off if we had left the region be in the 80's.

Technically, the United States backed Saddam Hussein. Rumsfeld meet him and shook his hand.
Would have been possible if there was an acceptance that we started to stir the pot in the region immediately following WWII, and accelerating with the coup in Iran (1953). What followed was merely corrective action...
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:13 PM
 
1,069 posts, read 1,254,570 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
It takes a crazy person to control crazy people.

No, we'd have been much better off if we had left the region be in the 80's.

Technically, the United States backed Saddam Hussein. Rumsfeld meet him and shook his hand.
Craziness aside, Saddam was not going to live forever and he might never have survived the Arab Spring.
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,815,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vfrex View Post
Craziness aside, Saddam was not going to live forever and he might never have survived the Arab Spring.
There can be no excuse for our meddling. We did replace Saddam with the guy who was a key cog to our invasion: Al Maliki.
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Old 08-22-2014, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Sango, TN
24,868 posts, read 24,386,012 times
Reputation: 8672
Quote:
Originally Posted by vfrex View Post
Craziness aside, Saddam was not going to live forever and he might never have survived the Arab Spring.
Assad seems to be doing pretty good. So did the Saudi's, and yes, there was a movement in Saudi Arabia, but they just squashed it. Like Saddam used to do.

No, I think Saddam would have been just fine for a good long while, and his sons would have probably taken over. Blood thirsty dictators can only be overthrown by their people
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:04 PM
 
1,069 posts, read 1,254,570 times
Reputation: 989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Memphis1979 View Post
Assad seems to be doing pretty good. So did the Saudi's, and yes, there was a movement in Saudi Arabia, but they just squashed it. Like Saddam used to do.

No, I think Saddam would have been just fine for a good long while, and his sons would have probably taken over. Blood thirsty dictators can only be overthrown by their people
Perhaps you are right, but I don't know if Assad is doing all that well: Cities and towns during the Syrian Civil War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It would be a whole lot worse for him if the Islamist militants weren't fighting the secular.
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