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Old 09-18-2014, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,016 posts, read 12,552,376 times
Reputation: 9030

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Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
In my example no one was being exploited. If someone is willing to do it for less voluntarily, they are not being exploited. To be exploited means that someone is being treated unfairly. My statement said that if someone was willing to do it for five an hour, that is what it is worth.

I know many people believe that freedom is evil, but that does not make it so.
Your definition of "Exploit" is incorrect. Oxford says this, The fact of making use of a situation to gain unfair advantage for oneself: So, in reality willingness or not by the object of the exploitation makes not a single whit of difference if it's exploitation or not.

Your statement about "Freedom" as related to the conditions under which a person labours is even worse.
As you apply that concept of Freedom, it would logically follow that I would be anti freedom if I denied your right to own slaves. These two examples of "Doublespeak" are typical the complete anti intellectual, convoluted and untrue statements we hear coming from people like Sean Hannity every time he opens his big trap. It's precisely why Fox news has NO CREDIBILITY at all among people who can think and reason on a basic level.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:18 PM
 
7,846 posts, read 6,390,200 times
Reputation: 4025
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Why does this discussion have anything to do with skin color?
Because this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
Flipping burgers, stocking shelves, etc is low skill, low value, and thus low pay. A monkey could be trained to do that and for less money. While these functions are 'essential', they don't provide value. Too many people can do it the exact same way.
The OP is either ignorant of the historical context of black Americans and monkeys (no coincidence that most minimum wage workers are black or brown), is repeating a euphemism heard on conservative media, or both. "Monkey" is not a coincidental euphemism. There are thousands of animals in the kingdom, why did the OP choose monkey as a euphemism? Why is an animal the euphemism?

Dehumanization.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
Nice job of backpeddling after you had to put your foot in your mouth.

Again, the fact that you have to bring race into it (YOU did, I didn't) tells me that you're simply looking for opportunities, like most libs, to turn this into a race discussion. Which it isn't.

No where, no how, did I make any reference to race in my original posting. If you want to equate monkeys with black people, then that says more about you than me.
If you want to be ignorant to your own cookie cutter parroted euphemisms so be it. It says more about your lack of critical thinking when starting this thread.


Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
Discriminating against people or making derogatory statements about people is not racist, it is bigoted.

Racism requires the belief that one group is superior to another. Simply hating, saying bad things about, discriminating against, or even directing violence against a group is not necessarily racism. The belief in superiority is needed for it to be racism.
Simply incorrect. Discriminating against someone on the basis of race is the textbook definition of racism.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:24 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,735,028 times
Reputation: 1336
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
Your definition of "Exploit" is incorrect. Oxford says this, The fact of making use of a situation to gain unfair advantage for oneself
Excuse me? I am an Agorist and I abhor the "left" and "right" in this country equally.

You can not exploit someone who voluntarily enters into an agreement. Who is being treated unfairly in a voluntary agreement?
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:27 PM
 
34,620 posts, read 21,545,038 times
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Racism - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Racism:
1: a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race

2: racial prejudice or discrimination
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:27 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,735,028 times
Reputation: 1336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opin_Yunated View Post
Simply incorrect. Discriminating against someone on the basis of race is the textbook definition of racism.
Racism: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

Without the belief in the superiority of one's race in comparison to another its just bigotry.
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Old 09-18-2014, 03:33 PM
 
34,620 posts, read 21,545,038 times
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bigotry: definition of bigotry in Oxford dictionary (American English) (US)

bigotry:
Intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself:
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Old 09-18-2014, 06:51 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,016 posts, read 12,552,376 times
Reputation: 9030
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
Excuse me? I am an Agorist and I abhor the "left" and "right" in this country equally.

You can not exploit someone who voluntarily enters into an agreement. Who is being treated unfairly in a voluntary agreement?
COME ON!!! You have to be able to think better than that!!!!

Someone who is desperate, has no money or food very well might enter into any agreement no matter how bad it is because of his circumstances. The fact he is entering into the agreement of his own free will has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether he is being exploited or not. A person can be tricked into a bad exploitative agreement and it happens every single day. A person who lacks intelligence can be exploited and often is even though he is going along with it.
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:01 PM
 
Location: The ends DO NOT justify the means!!!
4,783 posts, read 3,735,028 times
Reputation: 1336
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
COME ON!!! You have to be able to think better than that!!!!

Someone who is desperate, has no money or food very well might enter into any agreement no matter how bad it is because of his circumstances. The fact he is entering into the agreement of his own free will has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with whether he is being exploited or not. A person can be tricked into a bad exploitative agreement and it happens every single day. A person who lacks intelligence can be exploited and often is even though he is going along with it.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If one enters voluntarily into an agreement he must think it is to his benefit. So I fail to understand how it is unfair in some way. If it is okay with him, who am I, or anybody else, to call it exploitation? We are not part of that agreement and it is none of our business.

Now there are those who think that all "labor" is exploitation. But I will leave that delusion to those who cling to it.
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:20 PM
 
1,806 posts, read 1,734,583 times
Reputation: 988
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
Maybe I'm preaching to the choir here.....I'm assuming a majority of posters on CD are college educated?
If that assumption is true, then we all know that the global workplace is competitive, and in order to create value and 'deserve' higher pay, you have to provide something to your employer that the next guy can't. The higher the skills, the higher the pay.

Flipping burgers, stocking shelves, etc is low skill, low value, and thus low pay. A monkey could be trained to do that and for less money. While these functions are 'essential', they don't provide value. Too many people can do it the exact same way.

My point being, if you have kids, regardless of age, you should be talking to them about continuing their education, striving to do more than the minimum requirements, about developing skills that will be valued when they enter the workforce.

Ok, soap box is collapsing.
Why would you assume that? Also, if monkeys could be trained to do jobs more cheaply then you'd see people hiring monkeys. They aren't. The main point of your thread is worthless. What you label as your main point, thought it really isn't, doesn't take into consideration that poor people have less time and resources to spend with their kids as they go through school and in many cases can't afford any education for their kids beyond high school. I know people who's families are middle class who've had to drop out in this country.

Nice try, but when you stand on a soap box talking about education then you should probably display some of it.
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,016 posts, read 12,552,376 times
Reputation: 9030
Quote:
Originally Posted by irspow View Post
I guess we will have to agree to disagree. If one enters voluntarily into an agreement he must think it is to his benefit. So I fail to understand how it is unfair in some way. If it is okay with him, who am I, or anybody else, to call it exploitation? We are not part of that agreement and it is none of our business.

Now there are those who think that all "labor" is exploitation. But I will leave that delusion to those who cling to it.
I should know better to debate an Agorist. If you can believe that theory, you can believe anything.

Stop being so completely illogical, it makes me crazy.
In the early 80s I was part of a team tasked to repair some piping inside a reactor. It cost 23 million just to weld a few pipes as everything had to be done remotely. Now, in India there is an exact copy of that reactor. When their pipes had the very same problem, what did they do? Well, they recruited a few welders and promised to pay them extremely well to go into the reactor and weld those pipes. Those welders very eagerly entered into that agreement and were paid a few thousand dollars for their work. Had they been exploited. Well, you would say no they had not been. Would it make any difference if you knew that none of those welders lived even a year after their massive radiation exposure. OF COURSE THEY WERE EXPLOITED. AGREEMENT OR NOT IS IRRELEVANT TO THE CASE.

Millions of people are exploited every single day with their full agreement. The exploitation of a person has nothing at all to do with agreement or not. Many young and vulnerable girls are completely, totally and absolutely exploited by some pimp with their full agreement in the deal. That agreement is irrelevant and immaterial to the case of exploitation of one by another.
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