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There's a pretty good Benjamin Franklin quote on that one:
The logical outcome is for the bagpipe-playing pestilence (I am going to regret that example, am I not?) to move out of earshot of people trying to sleep. I do not see why we have to wait until we've lost our jobs due to sleep deprivation to make a claim that he needs to stop. If experience shows that nocturnal bagpipe practice actually does cause harm to surroundings, what is the problem in stopping him before the damage is done? Sure, we'll be initiating force. I don't think I care.
Interesting quote...I have to disagree with him there. Franklin and Jefferson must have had some interesting debates...
I answered the second part in my last post. I think it's initiating force if its harming your physical health, so you don't have to stand around wishing you could defend yourself. It's definitely not an easy situation to deal with, though...I'll say that.
There's a pretty good Benjamin Franklin quote on that one:
The logical outcome is for the bagpipe-playing pestilence (I am going to regret that example, am I not?) to move out of earshot of people trying to sleep. I do not see why we have to wait until we've lost our jobs due to sleep deprivation to make a claim that he needs to stop. If experience shows that nocturnal bagpipe practice actually does cause harm to surroundings, what is the problem in stopping him before the damage is done? Sure, we'll be initiating force. I don't think I care.
Bravo Sir or Madam!
'Vision without implementation is hallucination.' -Benjamin Franklin or Bertrand Russell (not sure which however neither's a slouch)
Here's a thought: stop trying to tell people how to live their lives. Stop digging into others' pockets because you're too goddamn stingy to support charity yourself. Most importantly, stop giving your beloved government the power to do anything it desires. You dim bulbs act so goddamn intelligent; you ever think maybe the apparatus built for the "noble goals" you people support may some day be turned around against you?
Unfortunately for those of us who can see the writing on the wall, the things you idiots support harms everyone.
Exactly, if a women wants an abortion then she should be able to have one.
'Vision without implementation is hallucination.' -Benjamin Franklin or Bertrand Russell (not sure which however neither's a slouch)
The early designers were pragmatic anarchists.
They were like the core group of knights Templar in the movie "kingdom of heaven". I am pretty sure those knights existed, when your that bad a** everyone elses opinion is irrelevant you just kill them all.
There are penalties that don't require violence. This case is a bit trickier because the bagpiper isn't being violent unless it begins to harm the health of others...but I don't think sending police to threaten them is justified because people are simply annoyed. I'm guessing you'll disagree, but that's how I see it.
Also, just want to point out that having police get involved is using violence. If you don't listen to them, they will use aggression against you. If you break any government law, even a minor one, they fine you. You don't pay the fine, eventually they try to take your house, property, whatever or just simply try to put you in a cage. If you resist that as well, they'll kill you.
I think that's a terrible thing actually. The person might be a bigot and worthy of disapproval for refusing to serve a certain person, but they have every right not to. Being forced to serve someone else is slavery.
If they are damaging someone else's property in some way or doing things that harm others, they are initiating force. People can rightfully defend themselves from this, hopefully using force only as a last resort.
Disagree there...they don't have the right to tax. If I don't have the right to take money from you, I can't say "We had this fancy ceremony and decided that my friend Bob has the right to take your money." You can't delegate a right to someone else that you don't have yourself.
I said that once it is harmful to your health, it can be considered an initiation of force. If you are losing sleep consistently due to their playing and it weakens your immune system (or whatever) then they are hurting you and you can defend yourself. If you are simply annoyed, I don't think you can call it self-defense.
The system you promote is essentially anarchy. There are certainly penalties that don't involve violence, but good luck enforcing them peacefully without police and court involvement.
What kind of "self-defense" do you have in mind for the bagpiper? Non-lethal force? Lethal? What about in a car accident that is someone else's fault?
As for the anti-discrimination example, it is a poor choice of words to describe non-discrimination requirements as slavery--it minimizes and distorts actual slavery. In our society, a person does not have the right to refuse service for any reason. They are free not to enter business at all if the requirement is so onerous.
It is not a use of force, in any meaningful way, to draw groundwater from your property. But groundwater flows, and your draw impacts down flow owners' access to groundwater that would otherwise be accessible. Management of scarce resources demands a certain level of cooperation. Externalities, like pollution, can only be dealt with through societal rules.
As to taxes, they result from a delegation of the people's will to the legislature. The legislature then enacts policy, including fiscal policy, with that will. Without fiscal policy, we would have no currency, which would enormously increase transaction costs for every conceivable transaction.
Nah, it's because you insist on dealing with a complex issue in absolutes. Some actions influence others to a smaller or larger degree, so personal autonomy can't be absolute.
If society decides its's better to have noise ordinances keeping people from practicing bagpipes within city limits between 10 AM and 8 AM, you can bet your last dollar it's because some guy with a bagpipe cherished his individual right to freedom of musical expression over his neighbors freedom to sleep.
Precisely. The need stemmed from the self-centered antisocial behavior. By contrast, coming to consensus as a society about what rules and other parameters to put into place doesn't inject anyone's self-centered anything into the mix.
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Originally Posted by Gungnir
Only if you subscribe to the belief that "society" exists as it's own entity. Or is it just the name we give to a bunch of individuals cooperating for mutual benefit?
The latter, and the key word is cooperating. There are those who are contributing members of society and those who place themselves above society.
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Originally Posted by Gungnir
However consider very carefully what society is, because if society is the goal, then you support your own insignificance.
Not insignificance, but surely each person's own selfish desires are not superior to that of anyone else's and therefore not superior to that which ensures that no one's selfish desires are allowed to flail indiscriminately against others living their lives.
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Originally Posted by Gungnir
Why is selfishness bad?
Unchecked, self-entitled selfishness results in inescapably escalating conflict or maltreatment of the weak by the strong. Of course, only moral people will recognize either as a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by Gungnir
Did you care how your statements might affect others prior to posting?
Yes and they were carefully crafted to fit within the normal tenor of these discussions in this forum.
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Originally Posted by Gungnir
There is no such thing as true altruism
Altruism is a red herring.
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Originally Posted by Gungnir
Bad. What a trite description
And precisely what is warranted in that case. The argument for selfishness is so puerile that responding to it with in-kind responses is appropriate.
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Originally Posted by highlife2
Why would I stop doing something that works?
My point exactly: The arrogance of selfishness feeds on itself.
Actually, the freedom we enjoy in the United States has always been pretty extreme. Some extremists want to drive it more extreme and act like children when they don't get their way.
Example? Do you have one? To whom do you refer?
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then she should be able to have one.
