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A court of law recognizes the skilled arguments of an expensive lawyer whose expensive services are in demand because he has a tendency to win cases. Money buys you the services of that lawyer.
Lawyers provide pro bono cases to the indigent. Maybe poor people should stop committing crimes.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
In other words, possible ways to attain equal protection of the law, are not worth discussing, because rich/elite people will always have better protection than poor people, no matter how much people brainstorm to find a better way?
In other words, the people who have the power will never give up what they have. If they are removed by force, the new people in power will then enjoy what those they replaced had. It is the very nature of man to take advantage of any situation and then ensure that he can benefit from it..
You seek to separate issues. Level playing field in the court of law, but ignore all the systems that enable the elites.
Corruption is power and power corrupts absolutely. As long as man is involved this is what you will have.
That's the dream, not the reality. The poor ignorant person who has no experience dealing with lawyers and no clue how to hire a good one, has much lower status before the law in reality. Rich litigation-prone people have a huge advantage, because their experience from suing everyone in sight, over every little slight, helps them understand how to know which lawyers are the most skilled, and their wealth helps them hire those.
In other words, the people who have the power will never give up what they have. If they are removed by force, the new people in power will then enjoy what those they replaced had. It is the very nature of man to take advantage of any situation and then ensure that he can benefit from it..
You seek to separate issues. Level playing field in the court of law, but ignore all the systems that enable the elites.
Corruption is power and power corrupts absolutely. As long as man is involved this is what you will have.
Then what's the point of having any government at all? If we're always at the mercy of corruption and evil, shouldn't we try to simplify things, by getting rid of courts and replacing them with forts?
That's the dream, not the reality. The poor ignorant person who has no experience dealing with lawyers and no clue how to hire a good one, has much lower status before the law in reality. Rich litigation-prone people have a huge advantage, because their experience from suing everyone in sight, over every little slight, helps them understand how to know which lawyers are the most skilled, and their wealth helps them hire those.
I don't think that's an issue. Poor people can find good lawyers with the internet now and they can interview multiple lawyers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eok
Then what's the point of having any government at all? If we're always at the mercy of corruption and evil, shouldn't we try to simplify things, by getting rid of courts and replacing them with forts?
It's the lesser of all evils. Abolish government and you are at the mercy of other men.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
It's still the dream, not the reality. Pro bono work is very limited and not always available. And a lot of people have just enough income to not qualify as poor, but not enough income to buy equal protection of the law.
It's still the dream, not the reality. Pro bono work is very limited and not always available. And a lot of people have just enough income to not qualify as poor, but not enough income to buy equal protection of the law.
Pro bono work is always available in criminal cases and everyone is legally entitled to legal representation. If a court doesn't appoint you an attorney when you can't afford one the case can be overturned due to a 14th amendment violation.
Therefore I propose that the main purpose of government should be to provide a level playing field for everyone, and let people win or lose, while keeping the rules fair and preventing cheating.
The main purposes of government are:
To provide for he defense of the country
To ensure that citizens rights are not infringed
The second statement should be interpreted by and large to mean to ensure a level playing field as you suggest.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eok
But that would mean rich people would not be allowed to hire better lawyers than poor people.
I think this is carrying the notion of a level playing field way too far. Why do certain people have the opportunity to hire a better lawyer? Because they worked hard and earned money. Should that be taken away from them?
Besides, having sat on a few juries, I think most of the outcome of a case is influenced by the jury, followed by the judge, and the lawyers last.
Quote:
Originally Posted by eok
But if people can buy their own rules of the game, buy parts of the playing field, pay to have the playing field manipulated in their favor, then that isn't real capitalism. That's basically the law of the jungle, where the playing field consists of whatever you can grab and manipulate, and there are no rules preventing any unfair advantages.
It's not the law of the jungle, it's crony capitalism. It's a huge problem, but the solution is not more government. The root cause of the problem is that we've allowed the government to have way too much regulatory power over the economy. When you do that people with power WILL work to influence that power to their advantage. Power in this sense can be measured in any number of ways: intelligence, personal connections, number of voters they can bring to the table, and so forth. Money is of course one source of power, but it is only one among many.
I'm afraid the only solution is to get the government out of the economy so there is no advantage to be gained, no reason to try to influence the outcome.
Then what's the point of having any government at all? If we're always at the mercy of corruption and evil, shouldn't we try to simplify things, by getting rid of courts and replacing them with forts?
Depending on the form of government, it keeps it from going to far and provides the possibility for others to advance. We may and I often do, disagree with our political elite, but I have been to countries that do little or nothing to allow a common man to rise above his birth place in society. That said the generosity of the human condition has limits. In a perfect society man would be generous and willing to work towards complete equality. That of course is a pipe dream. Some people will always be willing to overachieve and expect to be held in higher regard than those who don't.
Say what you will, but the achievers expect to be rewarded and given advantages over those who only do as much as they have to. Special considerations based upon what they perceive as their contributions.
Take it to the work place. You have 2 workers. One comes in early, works hard and always delivers above average results. The second employee always arrives at the last minute and his best day can be described as average. Both have an equal amount of call ins. That performer will get the benefit of the doubt 99% of the time before the perceived slacker.
Why? Some would say that he or she has earned it.
Look at it another way. Employee 1 is best friends with the owner, the shift supervisor and the floor supervisor. He isn't much of a person or a worker and he never will need to be either to get special consideration. That is because this is human nature.
Hot looking girl. In a work place where average looking women are the norm at best and men are the vast majority. 99% that girl will get special consideration.
What makes you think our legal system will be any different? 2 people are charged with the same crime. 1 very attractive and 1 mud fence ugly. We'll say that crime is Rape, then murder. I sat on such a jury for a handsome scum bag. The old ladies on that jury just refused to accept that such a handsome nice young man would do such a crime. 100%, if the man was ugly he would be guilty before those old ladies heard a word of testimony.
My point is society will always give advantages based upon prejudices, ideals, or sense of entitlement by people with power. It will always be this way as long as humans are in charge or until we evolve beyond what we are.
If you can't see that it isn't just at the top, but all the way to the bottom of society and in everything we do, then nothing anyone can say will matter to you.
Heres a clue, I have more money then average. I KNOW I don't have equal status before the law. While I don't have enough money to kill someone and get off on a "suffering from affluence" argument, I do know that I can get by with a lot more then poor people can.
Having been poor when I was younger certainly helps me recognize that!
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