Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Regarding libertarians wanting no government, there are anarchist libertarians and minarchist libertarians, so it depends who you ask. I'm an anarchist libertarian, so I say there would be no supreme court, at least as it exists today.
Actually the OP has not bought into the racist propaganda that the Civil War was not fought over slavery.
Slaves? What slaves? The Civil War was fought over state's rights. The state's right to own slaves.
now let's have 10 pages of twisted logic about how slaves were never the issue.
I think you are misunderstanding the facts.
I'll start out by giving you what you want, the slavery issue was most certainly the issue that impelled the south to secede. Tariffs were a key factor as well. But secession is not war.
In 1861, the south had seceded. They had declared themselves a separate country. They pulled all their representatives from Washington D.C.. Had Lincoln simply let the south leave peacefully, there wouldn't have been a war.
The war was fought because Lincoln wasn't going to allow the south to secede, period. You can rant about Ft Sumter, but with or without Ft Sumter, Lincoln wasn't going to allow the south to secede. You know that, I know that, we all know that.
Furthermore, Lincoln said repeatedly that if the south reentered the union, that he would not interfere with slavery. And as some have noted, he continued to enforce the fugitive slave-act in the "border states" during the war.
Those border states of Delaware, Maryland, Kentucky, and Missouri weren't affected whatsoever by the emancipation-proclamation(go read it), and continued to have slavery during the entire Civil War.
Even more importantly, lets pretend for a moment that the south didn't secede at all. Would slavery have ended? When?
Lincoln said repeatedly that he simply wanted to prevent new states from becoming slave states, but promised to never interfere with slavery in the states where it already existed.
The irony is that without war, there wouldn't even be a 13th, 14th, and 15th amendment. In fact, Lincoln wanted to remove blacks entirely from America.
I want to add one more thing. I really really really really hate the myth of Lincoln, and the myth of the Civil War. Lincoln was not a great man, he was a scumbag of the highest order.
Lincoln would have fought the Civil War regardless of the issue, and regardless of what state was seceding.
Had New England tried to secede for any reason, he would have invaded and crushed them. And while we know that Lincoln killed ~650,000 Americans. That is merely the final death count. Lincoln would have killed any number of Americans, to the very last one if it was necessary.
He waged a war to "preserve the union". But what do you call a union which can only be held together by the deaths of hundreds of thousands of its own countrymen? An Empire.
He was just another scumbag in a long line of American scumbags, starting with Alexander Hamilton.
This is Alexander Hamilton(in the military garb), talking about how he wanted to invade Virginia and Kentucky when Thomas Jefferson and James Madison wrote the "Kentucky and Virginia resolutions". It comes from the John Adams miniseries which is largely based on historical writings by people like Adams, Jefferson, Washington, and Hamilton.
I'm not a libertarian so this is a genuine question on the libertarian philosophy.
Without government, how do you rectify oppression through the supreme court decision like dred scott? It literally took the strong arm of government via a civil war and lots of government policies to start to undo the horrors of that supreme court decision.
It just seems to be that the fundamental flaw of libertarianism is too much trust in both local government to provide rights (which prior to the 1960's they didn't) and too much trust in the supreme court that they will uphold the constitution.
This is actually a good question.
Most people do not really understand how our legal system was designed.
Our legal system in its original concept was brilliant in that it left the final power of the law in the hands of the people.
The legislature writes law.
The Supreme Court interprets law.
And the people / jury's judge the law, and the guilt or innocence of their peers.
The entire government including the President, the Congress, and the Supreme Court are but servants of the people, and cannot judge the guilt or innocence of a citizen, as they are below the status of a citizen.
Only a peer, which is another citizen, is of proper stature in out system to judge another citizen.
The specific term for what I am discussing here is called jury nullification, and it says that the jury has final say in the outcome of any trial.
If a defendant is guilty of breaking a law, but in the eyes of the jury the law is unjust, or there are circumstances that justify the defendants actions the jury has both the power and the duty to set that defendant free.
The basis of the legal system is not law, it is justice . The legislature can pass a law, the Supreme Court can interpret that law, but it is the jury alone who has the power to judge if the law is fair and if their peers actions in relation to that law requires punishment or not.
When the people hold power you have freedom, when the government holds power, you have tyranny.
I'm not a libertarian so this is a genuine question on the libertarian philosophy.
Without government, how do you rectify oppression through the supreme court decision like dred scott? It literally took the strong arm of government via a civil war and lots of government policies to start to undo the horrors of that supreme court decision.
It just seems to be that the fundamental flaw of libertarianism is too much trust in both local government to provide rights (which prior to the 1960's they didn't) and too much trust in the supreme court that they will uphold the constitution.
You've confused libertarianism with anarchy. Libertarians want minimal government, while anarchist want none.
Actually the OP has not bought into the racist propaganda that the Civil War was not fought over slavery.
Slaves? What slaves? The Civil War was fought over state's rights. The state's right to own slaves.
now let's have 10 pages of twisted logic about how slaves were never the issue.
While slavery was an issue, it was not the cause of the war. The civil war was a battle for the power and the ownership of the resources of the entire country.
The northern industrialists of the early 1800's wanted and eventually achieved complete control over the resources of the entire United States which by rights belonged to the American people.
In order to accomplish this there were specific things that needed to be accomplished. A few of the major issues on the agenda were the genocide of the Native Americans, and the destruction of the wealth base in the southern states, as at that time the wealth held in the South made them a very real and obvious opponent to the monopolization of the nations resources.
Another was the war with Mexico in which the US would steal a great deal of land and the resources that went with them.
And finally the civil war was the death blow for states rights, and established once and for all an all powerful central government in which the Constitution was no longer in effect except for the purpose of allowing the people the fantasy of freedom which they no longer possessed.
Status:
"everybody getting reported now.."
(set 21 days ago)
Location: Pine Grove,AL
29,550 posts, read 16,536,658 times
Reputation: 6032
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank DeForrest
The o.p. is either ignorant of,or is ignoring, the fact that the civil war wasn't fought over slavery.
It was fought over slavery, the "State right" that you are going to claim it was fought over was the right for the states to decide if its citizens could own slaves or not.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
