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I suggest you take that up with the British. You guys seem to have had plenty of opportunities to fight them in Ulster.
We both know that when Irish came here they were immediately afforded rights and human status blacks were not and are not allowed to enjoy. To compare the history of any white-skinned Irish immigrants to that of Africans brought here involuntarily is insane.
- Sure. Just as Blacks had plenty of opportunity's to fight the Klan in the deep South. Level playing fields, equal opportunities right? If your narrative is that hundreds of years of oppression has a residual effect on the psychology of a people, then that should apply to all the oppressed. You don't get to claim it's psychological effect and then claim it's not psychological, but rather geographic because it no longer suits your "we're the only victims" narrative.
- What??? This is one of the most racist, culturally insensitive things I've ever seen written here. You should be ashamed of yourself. The Irish were not considered humans, rather sub-humans, of a different, inferior race and certainly not White. That is factual, not an opinion. That wasn't some nut job mindset either, but rather the generally accepted belief among Whites. The Irish didn't come here voluntarily, they had a proverbial gun to their heads. Your family will die, or you leave your country. Since many couldn't afford passage, they sold themselves into bondage. Hard to imagine why they would take jobs building the railroads along side the Chinese and Blacks if they had any other options available to them.
Last edited by Mason3000; 12-20-2014 at 01:31 PM..
At the risk of sounding insensitive, I have to point this out. There is a big difference between being an immigrant to the USA, and being Black American. I would say Black immigrants to this nation CHOOSE to be here, therefore, have a more optimistic view of the USA. I would say with Black Americans, it is different. While Afro-Caribbeans and Black Americans both are in North America because of slavery, the narratives between the two are different.
I had a conversation with a Haitian friend of mine. We both talked about Haitian culture and Black American culture, and one thing we did agree on was this. Different narratives. Haiti became independent through a slave rebellion. Black Americans,well, the opposite narrative. I noticed that he had a certain genuine pride of being Haitian. There wasn't this militancy about him. It was "I'm enough. I don't measure myself against anyone else, I am who I am". I feel that with being Black in America, the low self esteem among many Blacks come from measuring one's self against what everyone else in America. You might want to consider what that does to a person's self esteem. Maybe that is another major difference between Black Americans, and Blacks from Haiti, Jamaica, Dominica, Barbados,etc.
As you know I lived in various Caribbean countries for almost 20 years so I have some insight here. I lived next door to Haiti for seven of those years, have visited Haiti and have had personal interaction with hundreds of Haitians. I love Haitians and what you say has some merit. On the other hand, ask your Haitian friend if Blacks in the US have it easy? Blacks in other countries have it much, much worse than US Blacks can even imagine. That's why they are so unimpressed by US Blacks who have it so easy and comfortable here. In their countries they have the exact same social dynamics that US Blacks have. Police brutality, class warfare, crap education, crap medical care, rampant fatherless households, drug/alcohol abuse, hopelessness, rampant unemployment, rampant poverty, etc. There is literally nothing that US Blacks face that they don't face. The ONLY difference is they don't have Whitey to blame it on. They correctly blame their situation on their class, not skin color.
And furthermore, at least the Irish can learn Gaelic again. In fact, the Irish have their own country. Most Blacks don't even know what tribe in Africa they came from.
Well, not immediately. There was alot of anti-Irish sentiment at one point. There was alot of "No Irish Need Apply" in some places. On the other hand, I do agree that the Irish had the advantage of becoming counted as "White".
- We can learn Gaelic because some braves souls, under penalty of death, hid in caves and preserved the language hoping one day we would have the freedom to re-learn it again. Much like the brave Blacks who secretly taught one another to read and write during slavery.
- That's a cop out. The vast majority of US Blacks know what area their ancestors came from because African slavery of that time was geographically specific. Today, a simple DNA test can tell a person virtually everything they would want to know about where they came from.
- Do a google search of Irish at that time and you'll see us portrayed as apes and monkeys. Usually stealing something or raping White women. They shaded our skin in the newspaper pictures of the time to depict us as something other than White.
Immigrants were coming here. And while they might have had a status better than Blacks, they were still starting at a relatively low position, in comparison to Americans. Blacks were either enslaved or mainly poor. Many immigrants came very poor and working in lowly jobs. One would think that the Blacks and immigrants might want to ban together and get a better deal for themselves. When you have large amounts of impoverished and enslaved people standing united, it scares elite types, the wealthy, and those who are in charge. And in some cases, this happened. However, you had those who didn't want this to happen. For this reason, there were those who sought to turn immigrants against the Black population. I would argue racial tensions between the Blacks and Irish in Boston go back to that. In order to rise, one has to beat on the person in a lower position. In fact, tensions between the Irish and Blacks aren't limited to Boston.
- Sure. Just as Blacks had plenty of opportunity's to fight the Klan in the deep South. Level playing fields, equal opportunities right? If your narrative is that hundreds of years of oppression has a residual effect on the psychology of a people, then that should apply to all the oppressed. You don't get to claim it's psychological effect and then claim it's not psychological, but rather geographic because it no longer suits your "we're the only victims" narrative.
- What??? This is one of the most racist, culturally insensitive things I've ever seen written here. You should be ashamed of yourself. The Irish were not considered humans, rather sub-humans, of a different, inferior race and certainly not White. That is factual, not an opinion. That wasn't some nut job mindset either, but rather the generally accepted belief among Whites. The Irish didn't come here voluntarily, they had a proverbial gun to their heads. Your family will die, or you leave your country. Since many couldn't afford passage, they sold themselves into bondage. Hard to imagine why they would take jobs building the railroads along side the Chinese and Blacks if they had any other options available to them.
Irish family here too. WE had to step up and take care of business in England and the US before we got accepted and, many of us did die on the way.
The past is the past and; many of the things the "hated" English forced on us did pay off much later, like speaking English. I hate to say this but; Gaelic ain't real useful especially since there are different kinds of it between the Irish, the Scots and some other UK "ethnic minorities".
Immigrants were coming here. And while they might have had a status better than Blacks, they were still starting at a relatively low position, in comparison to Americans. Blacks were either enslaved or mainly poor. Many immigrants came very poor and working in lowly jobs. One would think that the Blacks and immigrants might want to ban together and get a better deal for themselves. When you have large amounts of impoverished and enslaved people standing united, it scares elite types, the wealthy, and those who are in charge. And in some cases, this happened. However, you had those who didn't want this to happen. For this reason, there were those who sought to turn immigrants against the Black population. I would argue racial tensions between the Blacks and Irish in Boston go back to that. In order to rise, one has to beat on the person in a lower position. In fact, tensions between the Irish and Blacks aren't limited to Boston.
As you know I lived in various Caribbean countries for almost 20 years so I have some insight here. I lived next door to Haiti for seven of those years, have visited Haiti and have had personal interaction with hundreds of Haitians. I love Haitians and what you say has some merit. On the other hand, ask your Haitian friend if Blacks in the US have it easy? Blacks in other countries have it much, much worse than US Blacks can even imagine. That's why they are so unimpressed by US Blacks who have it so easy and comfortable here. In their countries they have the exact same social dynamics that US Blacks have. Police brutality, class warfare, crap education, crap medical care, rampant fatherless households, drug/alcohol abuse, hopelessness, rampant unemployment, rampant poverty, etc. There is literally nothing that US Blacks face that they don't face. The ONLY difference is they don't have Whitey to blame it on. They correctly blame their situation on their class, not skin color.
One major difference between those Caribbean countries and U.S. Blacks. One reason it is easy to "blame the White man" is because Blacks aren't in charge in the USA. They are in charge in the Caribbean.
And as for what my Haitian friend and me discussed, well, he admitted that Blacks in the USA did face discrimination. He sees things a bit differently. He is of Haitian descent, but he was born and raised in the USA. On one hand, he doesn't agree with many things perpetrated by some members of the Black population. On the other hand, he also has experienced racism. He gets how things have worked. His mentality is this. According to him, Blacks in the USA have it harder than anyone else in the USA.
One thing you have to understand is this. One difference between foreign Blacks vs American Blacks is this. Narrative. Foreign Blacks are coming to this nation, from poorer places, looking for opportunities. They look at what they have in the USA vs what they would have where they came from. American Blacks are born and raised here, and know nothing else but here. It is about measuring themselves up vs everyone else who lives in America. Blacks in America are seeing themselves as being at the bottom in THIS COUNTRY. No Black person ever said Blacks in other countries have it easy. However, there is a difference between living in one country and immigrating to another vs being in one country your whole like, not knowing anything else and being at the bottom vis a vis everyone else.
Irish family here too. WE had to step up and take care of business in England and the US before we got accepted and, many of us did die on the way.
The past is the past and; many of the things the "hated" English forced on us did pay off much later, like speaking English. I hate to say this but; Gaelic ain't real useful especially since there are different kinds of it between the Irish, the Scots and some other UK "ethnic minorities".
"Before we got accepted."
'Nuff said.
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