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There seems to be a working presumption herein that the House and Senate will approve the funding for this proposal. I think President Obama's proposal is dead in the water. Perhaps in a few years.....
Sorting students by ability/skill level needs to start at K and continue through 12th. When students are sorted such, it's SIGNIFICANTLY easier for teachers to much more effectively target instruction to the students' needs. EVERY student progresses, instead of just the low end while the top and middle regress.
The problem is especially with special education, needs change over the K-12 years. I started in special education due to delayed speech. You give me math, science, history, reading comprehension, writing, etc. I did fine. It was just speech which was my problem causing spelling issues and to an extent it is today. It was the sole reason I was in special education until winter break of 2nd grade. I was mainstreamed in math in 1st grade and half of the day of 2nd grade prior to winter break. My brother was in a similar boat until entering 4th grade. No one would question our skills in class at that point really.
The problem is with the way New York did schooling is a few things and this why I don't think sorting works from say 6th grade on unless we DRAMATICALLY change the logic and focuses as I would guess other schools do this whether it is middle/junior high and (senior) high.
In middle school you could be in say honors math and science but be in normal English and social studies or vice-versa, but ONLY if you were good in both. There was no way you could be good enough to be in honors English and still be in it but not be in honors social studies based on the block scheduling. I know, it is weird based on conventional wisdom of math and science or English and social studies being linked, but it does happen. So instead of being challenged, you can basically be boxing or fighting a tomato can and pad your GPA by being in normal English while you should be in honors English but can't because your not as good as knowing geographic features.
In high school, classes were free-for-alls besides 4th period being freshman choir and band (I think orchestra as well) and 5th period being for concert choir. Otherwise, you were at the mercy of where your electives and classes you wanted to take (say continuing French after 10th grade or Sports Marketing) and how you can fit into those. This effected me sophomore year because my math teacher at the start of the year was a certified nut and I switched out. She didn't want anyone to help you except herself and complained about me double checking dividing fractions with my brother who like me, good at math the first day of school when I was doing homework. I was only forced to take that as I continued in choir, took French (though I didn't REALLY need to) and wanted to take intro to theater after seeing my brother do it the previous year. I dropped intro to theater to switch out.
It also would need constant monitoring during the school year which depending on topics can make it easier or harder. Say I take Earth Science (a science I liked and got a B in high school and an A in college) I could take the lower one to pad my GPA and get 100s on every test and labs at say 9 out of 10. You might think I should be in the "smart class" or moved from remedial to normal for my next science. So I get put into honors Biology and because of the difference (Earth science being more math based than Bio) I don't do as well in Biology and instead of B's like I would be expected to with course load, I'm hanging onto a C because it is a different thing. I'm sure the same thing happens with world history vs. American history and I know it happens with geometry vs algebra vs. statistics vs. pre-calculus.
The problem is especially with special education, needs change over the K-12 years.
That's why they should be in a class of their own until their capabilities match a higher level class.
The data is quite clear. Schools that have mixed-ability classes have severely declining test scores. Schools that have retained classes grouped by ability/skill-level have maintained their high test scores.
The key is fluidity of placement. Students move up or down, as students' test scores and their educational needs dictate.
Do you all not realize that you've BEEN paying for 2 year educations? You do realize that many, many, many people have been using Pell Grants for YEARS? Now, suddenly, you take issue with anyone getting their education paid for by the government?
YOU'VE BEEN PAYING FOR IT.
All this will do is pick up those who did not qualify for the Pell Grant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by legalsea
There seems to be a working presumption herein that the House and Senate will approve the funding for this proposal. I think President Obama's proposal is dead in the water. Perhaps in a few years.....
Yep Obama knows that but all this followers will think he keep thinking he is great and he will blame Congress. So what else is new. Besides with Pell Grants it's already being done. Obama wants credit though. It's all about keeping his followers (those who want free stuff) on board.
There seems to be a working presumption herein that the House and Senate will approve the funding for this proposal. I think President Obama's proposal is dead in the water. Perhaps in a few years.....
I think it depends on how it is financed. From my digging around, that will come on Groundhog's Day (February 2nd) provided we aren't too hungover or tired from the Super Bowl the day before.
My belief on the proposal (as I've said several times) is that it will reduce federal student loan and grant needs as the cost of community college is lower than universities (about four times the cost of credits and fees which would be covered by the plan) and you may not have as many people go onto university decreasing the amount of federal loans as well as parents who can save more for two years at state schools AFTER getting general education requirements done like many have (including myself.) I think unless we see a HUGE number flock to this, it would be cheaper if not revenue neutral to the student loan and grant money given out already.
That's why they should be in a class of their own until their capabilities match a higher level class.
The data is quite clear. Schools that have mixed-ability classes have severely declining test scores. Schools that have retained classes grouped by ability/skill-level have maintained their high test scores.
The key is fluidity of placement. Students move up or down, as students' test scores and their educational needs dictate.
Which if you read my previous post you would have seen the problems my middle school and high school had with getting that fluidity due to several reasons (pairings, scheduling, and course topics) which I expect others to have and do if one does. I don't disagree with the logic, the devil is in the details of how to implement the logic.
Which if you read my previous post you would have seen the problems my middle school and high school had with getting that fluidity due to several reasons (pairings, scheduling, and course topics) which I expect others to have and do if one does.
And yet the high-scoring schools are perfectly able to do exactly such. Hmmm...
Quote:
I don't disagree with the logic, the devil is in the details of how to implement the logic.
Some schools are clearly successful at it. Emulate them, nationwide.
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Sign me up. Free means everybody and we'll have campuses scrambling to accommodate huge new enrollments of students. It should signal a boom of construction and hiring. Will it succeed? Highly doubtful, but who cares.
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