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Old 01-22-2015, 01:07 PM
 
Location: NC
11,198 posts, read 8,236,717 times
Reputation: 12406

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
What is being described both in the OP straw man and the subsequent appeals to ridicule is not any libertarian or Austrian version of a free market. Free market economics is not anarchy, nor does it involve political cronysim (which involves government and purchases tyranny).

A free market is from free government INTERVENTION, COERCION and OPPRESSION. And most libertarian theory accepts that one of the few necessary functions of a small and limited government is to protect the individual's rights in regard to contracts, as in being impartial referee who simply adjudicates when any party in a contract seeks to violate the terms they agreed upon.

Now, if we are talking about an actual economic system based on laissez faire capitalism, i.e. the Internet marketplace of no borders and much commerce as a decent modern example, then the 100% free market would function in a similar way. There'd be winners, there'd be losers, and the 99% in between would conduct voluntary transactions to the mutual satisfaction of both buyer and seller, every second of every minute of every hour of every day. The Internet economy is larger than the GDP of all but 6 nations in the world, and it is the least regulated marketplace in existence.

Examine that economy, and ask how it works for the average participant? Seems to be working just fine if you ask me. Yes, there are scammers, predators, criminals, etc. But one of my own stories can help illustrate how fast a truly free market with massive competition and near instant word of mouth publicity handles the unscrupulous...

I made a purchase on PayPal about two years ago. The seller had fluffed their own ratings and looked like a reputable vendor. OK, so I drop my $37 and am promised delivery within a specified time frame. After the time period expired, I contacted the seller, who began tap dancing, sidestepping, and generally obfuscating like all scammers do. I then replied that they had exactly 5 minutes to either post my refund to PayPal or I would notify PayPal that they were a scammer and should be blocked on PayPal as an accepted vendor. They waited 5 minutes to see if I was bluffing, then I reported them to PayPal as I said, and within 1 minute of PayPal sending both myself and the vendor the confirmation of my complaint, the vendor was falling all over themselves to get me to rescind my report, to get PayPal off their back, apology apology apology, etc. No authorities needed, no government regs, no lawyers, nothing. Just a free market working out a problem over $37. No small claims court would even hear a case about $37, and I resolved mine in under a half hour.

Nowhere is the power of competition and the penalty for not making your customer happy more visible than the Internet. It works so well BECAUSE it is the least governed of all marketplaces. Bad guys on the Internet don't get government cronies to hide behind. They get hammered in the free and open marketplace of not just products, but of marketing, ideas and speech. One look at Amazon slapping down Mediabridge tells you all you need to know. Mediabridge went running to Leviathan (threatening to sue) for protection from a dissatisfied customer saying ugly things about them, and Amazon revoked Mediabridge's selling license on their site, because Amazon makes any retailer that sells through sign an agreement to not hassle customers about bad reviews. Mediabridge broke the agreement and went running to Leviathan for a "yeah but" legal exception, and Amazon used the power of the free market to win not just for themselves but for the harassed and threatened customer.

Yes, there is some regulation to the Internet, but less than in virtually any other large economic system, and it works better than any other large economic system where the flow of capital is concerned. It's not anarchy, and it isn't 100% free, but it's closer than anything else. So you tell me...how well does it work?
The problem with this analogy is that the internet is still heavily governed. Not directly, but indirectly. The laws of the land still apply. Monopolies are still against the law in the USA, but would not be in a free market. Drugs are still overseen by the FDA (perhaps not the most effective example), but would not be in a totally free market.

Perhaps the most compelling case:
Power Companies might be able to do their commerce on the internet, but if left to their governing, they would not be interested in protecting our environment. Look at Duke Power in NC, with the recent coal-ash spill. It still happened, but it would happen a lot more without regulatin.

BP Horizon?
Exxon Valdeze?
BoA Bogus Charges Scandals?
Insurance denial of coverage?
Building Codes?
Disclosure of Genetically Modified Foods?
etc.
etc.
etc.


All of that is partially kept in check by regulation. A free market might allow you to go online and complain about your power company polluting, but with the power that some companies can accumulate if unchecked, you could do nothing about it.


Mind you, I'm for a (mostly) free market, and do think we'd benefit from LESS regulation. But there is a balance, and the fact that about half the country thinks we need more regs, and the other half thinks we need less tells me that we are probably in the neighborhood of the right place....
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:10 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,731,012 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Now, if we are talking about an actual economic system based on laissez faire capitalism, i.e. the Internet marketplace of no borders and much commerce as a decent modern example, then the 100% free market would function in a similar way. There'd be winners, there'd be losers, and the 99% in between would conduct voluntary transactions to the mutual satisfaction of both buyer and seller, every second of every minute of every hour of every day. The Internet economy is larger than the GDP of all but 6 nations in the world, and it is the least regulated marketplace in existence.
There is no free lunch.

Have you tried Yelp? Extremely popular, right? Now analyze the corruption it represents (see how and which reviews they filter in/out, for example).

You detest being tracked about everything? Or, only if it is the government doing it? Do you expect some form of protection from abuse? Or, do you think that as long as it is a business or a corporation doing it, that you're fine?
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:13 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,866 posts, read 46,384,516 times
Reputation: 18520
Such extremes! Somalia, China....

I'm thinking America would be like it was before all that stuff got implemented.
1870-1912

The industrial revolution and all that stuff.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:13 PM
 
42,732 posts, read 29,750,933 times
Reputation: 14345
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
I didn't take it as an anarchy free for all. I took it as we still had the natural common laws and contract laws in place.
Theft, harm and killing being wrong and punishable.

First off, the wealthy would redistribute their wealth to those willing to work for it, or who they are willing to give it to as charity.
If I could prove harm, theft, or you killed my friend or a family member, then you would be held accountable.
If your company was hurting the people, the people would do something about it. You will be out of business one way or another. Justified killing, wasn't out of the relm of the justice system, when harm has been proven.


Instead of corporations, another evil would pop up that the courts would need to handle.
Monopolies(a form of corporation) Cartels, and price fixing.....


There would be MAFIA types, just like the government today acts as.
The OP calls it a corporate free-for-all.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:29 PM
 
Location: NC
11,198 posts, read 8,236,717 times
Reputation: 12406
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
I'm thinking America would be like it was before all that stuff got implemented.
1870-1912
Great time in America if you owned a railroad, or a factory. Not so much if you worked for one.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:30 PM
 
13,769 posts, read 5,502,312 times
Reputation: 8479
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
There is no free lunch.
I never claimed there was. Nowhere in any post I've ever written on any forum ever, matter of fact. Don't straw man me with an innuendo suggesting I am that ignorant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Have you tried Yelp? Extremely popular, right? Now analyze the corruption it represents (see how and which reviews they filter in/out, for example).
Ah, a subscriber to yelp-sucks.com, I see. Thing is, in the 5 years that yelp-sucks.com has been trying to prove that Yelp is an extortion racket...they haven't been able to, and haven't heard of anyone who has. They filter reviews according to an algorithm. Caveat emptor.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
You detest being tracked about everything? Or, only if it is the government doing it? Do you expect some form of protection from abuse? Or, do you think that as long as it is a business or a corporation doing it, that you're fine?
When a company I do business with gives my information to someone else, chances are very good it was in the terms of service when I dealt with them. I then choose to deal with them or not based on knowing whether or not they will share my information with others. The government gives me no choice, they simply use force. There's a vast difference between the two.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:49 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,866 posts, read 46,384,516 times
Reputation: 18520
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
The OP calls it a corporate free-for-all.

Corporation, company or individual, doesn't matter... There is always justice. One way or another. The harmed human will always seek revenge to be made whole.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:50 PM
 
Location: London
70 posts, read 67,812 times
Reputation: 71
Quote:
Originally Posted by valsteele View Post
If there was no welfare of any kind, no regulations, unlimited lobbying - a complete, corporate free for all, what would America be like? Do you think the benefits would trickle down to the masses due to limits being lifted on the innovation and entrepreneurship from great minds like Steve Wozniak, Miley Cyrus, and the Waltons, or would America turn into a plutocratic third world hell hole?
Some things don't make sense: you can't have no regulations and unlimited lobbying, the whole purpose of lobbying is to create laws and regulation for all kind of interests. It is easy to have a very wrong idea of what free market means with such contradicted ideas in one's head.

Ideally you would have full free market, full freedom and full RESPONSIBILITY. Laissez-faire as Libertarians called it a long time ago. This would mean minarchism or even better anarcho-capitalism.

Actually, Liberal is supposed to mean Libertarian, I don't know how Americans wrecked the meaning of the word.
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Houston
26,979 posts, read 15,808,301 times
Reputation: 11259
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myghost View Post
Great time in America if you owned a railroad, or a factory. Not so much if you worked for one.

It is a neccesary stage in the growth of a capitalist society. Capitalism results in accumulating wealth through time and thus the next generation is better off than the previous one.

I suggest googling "The Myth of the Robber Barons".
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Old 01-22-2015, 01:57 PM
 
34,620 posts, read 21,471,527 times
Reputation: 22232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Myghost View Post
GOP is vying for the Cast system.
It would still be better than the Democrat cast system of government leaders and drone workers.
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