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The whole "But... but.. it's not natural!" nonsense always trips them up.
After all, what's 'natural'? Synthetic fibers? Blood tranfusions? Corrective lenses? Plastic? All manner of things with which they have no problem whatsoever are decidedly unnatural.
Good point!
As some have already said, in so many words, not everything which is natural is necessarily a 'good thing'.
Syphilis comes to mind as does an entire array of highly infectious diseases, various cancers, as well as newly mutated disease which survive despite our best efforts at medicinal and pharmaceutical accomplishments.
But I digress, there are far more transgender living their lives...walking, breathing, and thriving among us and apparently to the vexation of many...if they only knew.
Life can be difficult enough so why should I (or anyone else for that matter) be the wrench in the plumbing of anyone (pun intended)? I have no axe to grind with anyone who is just trying to live their lives as the dream to live them.
How Many of Us Are There? An Investigative Report
Most psychiatrists therefore never see the vastly larger number of inconspicuous, successfully transitioning transsexuals. Most of those cases quietly undertake social/hormonal transitions with the help of practical (non-psychiatric, non-behaviorist) counseling. They enter and complete their R.L.E., obtain S.R.S., and then assimilate back into society in stealth mode, without ever interacting with traditional psychiatrists...
. Polare 44: How Many of Us Are There? | The Gender Centre Inc.
You can't change your chromosomes... You can't get a uterus through surgery... You can't produce eggs through surgery... You can't produce milk out of your breasts through surgery...
But are those things really the only characteristics that make someone a woman? If so, then what do we call sterile women? Or women that had a mastectomy?
Humans are so complex. We have gender roles, expectations, and strong emotional feelings associated with our gender. Being a man or a woman is emotionally engraved into who we are as humans. Gender isn't just body parts and reproduction abilities.
To bring things into perspective.. Think about this: if someone were to ask you why you feel like a man or a woman, what would you say? Would you just say, "my sperm makes me feel like a man"? or, "my milk ducts make me feel like a woman?"
...wouldn't you say something more complex than that? Like your emotions, feelings, motivations, ideas, way of thinking, personality, attitude?
Guys, if you got a vasectomy, are you no longer a man? Ladies, if you had a mastectomy because of cancer, are you no longer a woman?
Therefore, it's perfectly reasonable to allow someone to change their gender if they please. If they do not feel emotionally involved in their biological gender, then why not let them choose a gender that they will feel more "at home" in? They might not fit biological characteristics of a male or woman, but, as I said before, humans are complex and gender is so much more than that.
We aren't like fish. We're not just swimming around with the sole purpose of mating and producing off spring. We are a complex, developed species that is capable of more than that.
Here is the crux of the issue though, gender must be arbitrary if a biological male can be considered a woman or we must resort back to fairly strict gender roles. If gender is arbitrary it becomes meaningless. If gender is meaningless than it isn't a good classification to use and a more appropriate one would be biological sex. Now we are stuck at the same place we started.
I don't know what it feels like to be a man or a woman, I know what it feels like to be me, that is it. I happen to be male. I cannot speak for all males.
As some have already said, in so many words, not everything which is natural is necessarily a 'good thing'.
Syphilis comes to mind as does an entire array of highly infectious diseases, various cancers, newly mutated disease which survive despite our best efforts at medicinal and pharmaceutical accomplishments.
But I digress, there are far more transgender living their lives...walking, breathing, and thriving among us and apparently to the vexation of many...if they only knew.
Life can be difficult enough so why should I (or anyone else for that matter) be the wrench in the plumbing of anyone (pun intended)? I have no axe to grind with anyone who is just trying to live their lives as the dream to live them.
How Many of Us Are There? An Investigative Report
Most psychiatrists therefore never see the vastly larger number of inconspicuous, successfully transitioning transsexuals. Most of those cases quietly undertake social/hormonal transitions with the help of practical (non-psychiatric, non-behaviorist) counseling. They enter and complete their R.L.E., obtain S.R.S., and then assimilate back into society in stealth mode, without ever interacting with traditional psychiatrists...
. Polare 44: How Many of Us Are There? | The Gender Centre Inc.
Exactly! People are essentially bashing on someone that could be their neighbor or coworker. Everyone is just trying to be happy so just live your own life and don't interfere with others and their pursuit of happiness.
You can't change your chromosomes... You can't get a uterus through surgery... You can't produce eggs through surgery... You can't produce milk out of your breasts through surgery...
But are those things really the only characteristics that make someone a woman? If so, then what do we call sterile women? Or women that had a mastectomy?
Humans are so complex. We have gender roles, expectations, and strong emotional feelings associated with our gender. Being a man or a woman is emotionally engraved into who we are as humans. Gender isn't just body parts and reproduction abilities.
To bring things into perspective.. Think about this: if someone were to ask you why you feel like a man or a woman, what would you say? Would you just say, "my sperm makes me feel like a man"? or, "my milk ducts make me feel like a woman?"
...wouldn't you say something more complex than that? Like your emotions, feelings, motivations, ideas, way of thinking, personality, attitude?
Guys, if you got a vasectomy, are you no longer a man? Ladies, if you had a mastectomy because of cancer, are you no longer a woman?
Therefore, it's perfectly reasonable to allow someone to change their gender if they please. If they do not feel emotionally involved in their biological gender, then why not let them choose a gender that they will feel more "at home" in? They might not fit biological characteristics of a male or woman, but, as I said before, humans are complex and gender is so much more than that.
We aren't like fish. We're not just swimming around with the sole purpose of mating and producing off spring. We are a complex, developed species that is capable of more than that.
You can identify as the opposite gender.
That is not the same as changing genders.
We are mammals. All mammals, since they first roamed the earth, have been either male of female, and the one thing that separates the two are chromosomes. Bruce will never biologically be a female.
This is science. This is absolute.
I have no problem with him identifying as a woman. But he will never have XX chromosomes.
You can identify as the opposite gender.
That is not the same as changing genders.
We are mammals. All mammals, since they first roamed the earth, have been either male of female, and the one thing that separates the two are chromosomes. Bruce will never biologically be a female.
This is science. This is absolute.
I have no problem with him identifying as a woman. But he will never have XX chromosomes.
That's quite alright. So why do so many people have an issue with calling her "Caitlyn"? It's probably in her legal documents by now.. She's living life as a woman and thinks of herself as a woman as well.
That's quite alright. So why do so many people have an issue with calling her "Caitlyn"? It's probably in her legal documents by now.. She's living life as a woman and thinks of herself as a woman as well.
Living as a different gender doesn't mean people must recognize something that is not scientifically true.
It won't change the way he lives his new life. I'm sure he'll be just fine..... Hopefully. I have read that transgendered people have a high suicide rate.
There aren't enough swear words in all of the known spoken languages to relay my anger over this
Courage to put on a dress and makeup... and get paid big bucks for it.. Jenner shouldn't get any courage award... he is a sell out for a buck... he is competing with his x wife for media coverage.
The whole "But... but.. it's not natural!" nonsense always trips them up.
After all, what's 'natural'? Synthetic fibers? Blood tranfusions? Corrective lenses? Plastic? All manner of things with which they have no problem whatsoever are decidedly unnatural.
They don't even bother to think through the implications of their trite little sound-bytes before they spew them... (they're probably just regurgitating something they read on their favorite blog or heard in church, and they couldn't be bothered to critically consider the underlying 'logic')
Living as a different gender doesn't mean people must recognize something that is not scientifically true.
It won't change the way he lives his new life. I'm sure he'll be just fine..... Hopefully. I have read that transgendered people have a high suicide rate.
It is pretty high, 20 times higher. Johns Hopkins no longer provides the sex reassignment surgeries as it is referred to as a mental disorder in much the same vein as anorexia.
So the fact that Jenner is 6'2 and has massive feet automatically makes her less worthy than the transgender girl that's 5'3" with size 7 feet...?
Unfortunately for older people it is difficult to reverse those secondary sexual characteristics. But, nowadays with the reduction in stigma children who identify as transgender can have puberty delayed until they are old enough to make a permanent decision on gender, then either let puberty go, or treat with the other gender hormones. It is a very great advance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iaskwhy
Here is the crux of the issue though, gender must be arbitrary if a biological male can be considered a woman or we must resort back to fairly strict gender roles. If gender is arbitrary it becomes meaningless. If gender is meaningless than it isn't a good classification to use and a more appropriate one would be biological sex. Now we are stuck at the same place we started.
I don't know what it feels like to be a man or a woman, I know what it feels like to be me, that is it. I happen to be male. I cannot speak for all males.
Gender is not binary. There are people who identify as both, and as none.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orlandochuck1
You can identify as the opposite gender.
That is not the same as changing genders.
We are mammals. All mammals, since they first roamed the earth, have been either male of female, and the one thing that separates the two are chromosomes. Bruce will never biologically be a female.
This is science. This is absolute.
I have no problem with him identifying as a woman. But he will never have XX chromosomes.
And the woman in the cubicle next to you who is XXX or X? or the man who is XXY? They may not even know themselves that they are not XX or XY.
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