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Old 12-30-2016, 12:58 AM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,488,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Huntingtons is a terrible disease. However, wrt the slippery slope argument you reference, slippery slopes can work both ways. It is also possible for people to feel pressured into ending their lives because they feel they are a burden to their families. I don't disagree that a person's decision is between them and God/their conscience however that also applies to medical caregivers. They too have consciences and there may be things that they feel they cannot do. And really all anyone has is their conscience, which in some cases may be expressed as a belief in God. I just don't see how you can force people to go against their conscience. One's conscience is a higher morality than the law can legislate.
At this time, there has to be an untreatable illness that will cause death painfully in order for euthanasia to be an option.

Can that 'slip' to people deciding that they want to be euthanized because they feel burdensome?
I doubt it.

How is it against one's conscience to accept that a terminal patient would like to choose when to end life?

 
Old 12-30-2016, 01:20 AM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,488,527 times
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When I mention Pandora's Box, I dodn't mean that law will allow euthanasia for people who might be having a bad day.

My curiosity is whether euthanasia law could potentially lead to law such that anyone with certain DNA markers is given, for example, some sort of preference, and whether people with Alzheimers could be euthanized after, for example, they lose the word for clock. Euthanasia also seems like it could, at some level, relate to abortion law and sex, or genetic, selection.

That's the slippery slope that I see, including what sort of government would have to be in place for this to happen.
How many generations from today ...
 
Old 12-30-2016, 02:10 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,539,959 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
At this time, there has to be an untreatable illness that will cause death painfully in order for euthanasia to be an option.

Can that 'slip' to people deciding that they want to be euthanized because they feel burdensome?
I doubt it.

How is it against one's conscience to accept that a terminal patient would like to choose when to end life?
Yes, at this time there has to be an untreatable illness but there are people with untreatable conditions who do not want to die, perhaps hoping against hope that death will not happen to them. I've known some of them. And yet the care of terminally ill people is often burdensome and there are many issues in families which can cause family members to potentially put emotional pressure on such patients to die. Perhaps the screening process now in place is enough to prevent that, I don't know.

I don't understand your last question. I think most people can accept that some people might like to choose when to end life. 'Accepting' and 'doing' are two different things. The real question is about what the conscience of the medical personnel involved will accept. The 'why' hardly matters. If something goes against one's conscience it is morally wrong to do it and in most cases, wild horses are not going to get a person to do something that goes deeply against their grain. A doctor might be able to accept that a terminally ill patient facing a lot of pain wants to die without wanting to be the one to help him die. Physicians practising medicine today did not enter the profession with those expectations. Majority of doctors opposed to participating in assisted death of patients: CMA survey | National Post
 
Old 12-30-2016, 02:23 PM
 
5,097 posts, read 2,488,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Yes, at this time there has to be an untreatable illness but there are people with untreatable conditions who do not want to die, perhaps hoping against hope that death will not happen to them. I've known some of them. And yet the care of terminally ill people is often burdensome and there are many issues in families which can cause family members to potentially put emotional pressure on such patients to die. Perhaps the screening process now in place is enough to prevent that, I don't know.

I don't understand your last question. I think most people can accept that some people might like to choose when to end life. 'Accepting' and 'doing' are two different things. The real question is about what the conscience of the medical personnel involved will accept. The 'why' hardly matters. If something goes against one's conscience it is morally wrong to do it and in most cases, wild horses are not going to get a person to do something that goes deeply against their grain. A doctor might be able to accept that a terminally ill patient facing a lot of pain wants to die without wanting to be the one to help him die. Physicians practising medicine today did not enter the profession with those expectations. Majority of doctors opposed to participating in assisted death of patients: CMA survey | National Post
Obviously no one should be put in a position where they are required to provide assisted suicide, however there will be some medical doctors who are comfortable with that treatment. It's like the abortion issue where some doctors are comfortable with it, and others are not. Those who are not simply do not provide the treatment.

My second question relates to terminal patients who are afraid of the circumstances of their death - such as choking to death, or having a major artery rupture and having blood fill their lungs. If those patients prefer to set a day prior to that death circumstance where they can simply go to sleep and not wake up, I think that option should be available.
 
Old 12-30-2016, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Toronto
6,754 posts, read 3,784,549 times
Reputation: 4619
Default ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
Yes, at this time there has to be an untreatable illness but there are people with untreatable conditions who do not want to die, perhaps hoping against hope that death will not happen to them. I've known some of them. And yet the care of terminally ill people is often burdensome and there are many issues in families which can cause family members to potentially put emotional pressure on such patients to die. Perhaps the screening process now in place is enough to prevent that, I don't know.

I don't understand your last question. I think most people can accept that some people might like to choose when to end life. 'Accepting' and 'doing' are two different things. The real question is about what the conscience of the medical personnel involved will accept. The 'why' hardly matters. If something goes against one's conscience it is morally wrong to do it and in most cases, wild horses are not going to get a person to do something that goes deeply against their grain. A doctor might be able to accept that a terminally ill patient facing a lot of pain wants to die without wanting to be the one to help him die. Physicians practising medicine today did not enter the profession with those expectations. Majority of doctors opposed to participating in assisted death of patients: CMA survey | National Post
The majority of doctors at least based on the ones I have worked with need to be given more time to actually treat people like humans ... rather than objects. They often see people so fast and make judgements without actually taking the time to have proper discussions. It is only the patients that are pushy and demand their attention that get that level of care. I am not sure if that is because of the way the health care system is set up or because it really is a cash grab situation for many doctors, but it is a concern.

Doctors are here to advise and not dictate what a person can or cannot do with their body. They work for us to help us achieve the goals we hope to achieve. Doctors are people ...and just like the rest of us they don't know everything and do make mistakes. These decisions are not made by any one person. There are panels of people reviewing requests at each step and a lot of steps before the final act takes place. Based on the teams I work with once people were given more direction as to the steps in the process they felt more comfortable with implementing the request.

Not all doctors work in palliative care. That also needs to be taken in to consideration. Doctors that work in this area have been informally doing this for a long ex. No one specific doctor has the final say in this decision. Like any other area of care there will likely be people that specialize in this. Once I actually have a patient go through the process I will be better able to provide feedback. Despite this being legal I have not seen any mad rush of people wanting to have this done.

Also there are still some pretty significant criteria that a patient must meet before the request is approved. Also it must come from the patient and they wont be killing people just so family can get that insurance money faster ( ... yup I have had clients with family members like this).

Last edited by klmrocks; 12-30-2016 at 04:39 PM..
 
Old 12-30-2016, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,539,959 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by klmrocks View Post
The majority of doctors at least based on the ones I have worked with need to be given more time to actually treat people like humans ... rather than objects. They often see people so fast and make judgements without actually taking the time to have proper discussions. It is only the patients that are pushy and demand their attention that get that level of care. I am not sure if that is because of the way the health care system is set up or because it really is a cash grab situation for many doctors, but it is a concern.

Doctors are here to advise and not dictate what a person can or cannot do with their body. They work for us to help us achieve the goals we hope to achieve. Doctors are people ...and just like the rest of us they don't know everything and do make mistakes. These decisions are not made by any one person. There are panels of people reviewing requests at each step and a lot of steps before the final act takes place. Based on the teams I work with once people were given more direction as to the steps in the process they felt more comfortable with implementing the request.

Not all doctors work in palliative care. That also needs to be taken in to consideration. Doctors that work in this area have been informally doing this for a long ex. No one specific doctor has the final say in this decision. Like any other area of care there will likely be people that specialize in this. Once I actually have a patient go through the process I will be better able to provide feedback. Despite this being legal I have not seen any mad rush of people wanting to have this done.

Also there are still some pretty significant criteria that a patient must meet before the request is approved. Also it must come from the patient and they wont be killing people just so family can get that insurance money faster ( ... yup I have had clients with family members like this).
I don't get the feeling here that doctors are after money but perhaps I've been fortunate. This year has been full of hospital visits because my husband is likely dying. I do see that doctors and nursing staff are overworked. One of the things that needs to be addressed is better palliative care. Wait times have not been an issue as my husband has been seen immediately but the waiting isn't over just because one has seen the doctor. There is all the rest of the waiting for tests and test results, etc, and it's really getting to me by now. It's been a terrible year.
 
Old 12-30-2016, 08:02 PM
 
18,277 posts, read 10,380,277 times
Reputation: 13339
Quote:
Originally Posted by netwit View Post
I don't get the feeling here that doctors are after money but perhaps I've been fortunate. This year has been full of hospital visits because my husband is likely dying. I do see that doctors and nursing staff are overworked. One of the things that needs to be addressed is better palliative care. Wait times have not been an issue as my husband has been seen immediately but the waiting isn't over just because one has seen the doctor. There is all the rest of the waiting for tests and test results, etc, and it's really getting to me by now. It's been a terrible year.
Very sorry to read this and I can only offer an understanding of what you are going through as any sort of solace.
 
Old 12-30-2016, 08:05 PM
 
Location: British Columbia ♥ 🍁 ♥
7,248 posts, read 6,588,771 times
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Netwit, I can't think of anything consoling to say about your circumstances but I'm so sorry to hear that news. I hope 2017 will be less terrible.

.
 
Old 12-31-2016, 01:35 AM
 
10,847 posts, read 11,268,124 times
Reputation: 7586
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lieneke View Post
At this time, there has to be an untreatable illness that will cause death painfully in order for euthanasia to be an option.

Can that 'slip' to people deciding that they want to be euthanized because they feel burdensome?
I doubt it.

How is it against one's conscience to accept that a terminal patient would like to choose when to end life?
There is nothing wrong with wanting to die out of the feeling of being a burden. Often this feeling is not caused by families, but by the patient herself.

I have an aunt who died of a stroke 15 years ago. Before her death, the doctor asked her husband whether to do a surgery. Without the surgery she would die soon, and if the surgery went well (a big if), she would still lost much of her physically mobility (can't go to bathroom by herself etc). Her husband after consulting with other family members, decided not to go with the surgery, essentially putting an end to her life. The decision was based on the understanding that she wouldn't WANT to live like that. Is that murder? Or is that compassion and respect? Yes, she could have lived for another 10 years or even more, but if she didn't want that life with zero quality, who are we to force it on her? Just to show we respect life (and the bible)? How selfish.

One can say life is sacred, we should respect it, etc etc, but let's get over ourselves. Life is NOT sacred and there should not be this unconditional requirement to prolong life as long as we can, especially the person doesn't even want it. Yes, there is a small risk of abusing, but let's face it, in most cases, the patients are sane enough to make their own decisions. There is risk in any law and this is no exception. What we can do is to have proper procedures in place.
 
Old 12-31-2016, 05:58 AM
 
Location: Canada
5,692 posts, read 6,539,959 times
Reputation: 8193
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruSan View Post
Very sorry to read this and I can only offer an understanding of what you are going through as any sort of solace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zoisite View Post
Netwit, I can't think of anything consoling to say about your circumstances but I'm so sorry to hear that news. I hope 2017 will be less terrible.

.
Thanks, guys.
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