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Old 03-02-2015, 06:36 AM
 
20,524 posts, read 15,833,748 times
Reputation: 5943

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Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Jeez, where do I begin?

You're overplaying the language tensions in Belgium and Canada. Both countries are stronger for being multi-lingual, and internal polling reflects this. Still don't know why you brought this up. English is quite established in this country and isn't going anywhere.

If liberals mock southern accents, it's because historically, and presently, the South has been a bastion of backwardness and intolerance. Slavery? Jim Crow? Gay marriage? Southern conservatives haven't exactly unearned the dumb/ignorant stereotype. And yes, slavery, segregation and gay marriage opposition are ignorant and wrong. This isn't 'untolerant' liberal speak disagreeing with opinions. Don't pull that lame card.

So the founders are 'settlers' now, and not immigrants? Even though there was an established population here first, with laws and culture and everything, who inhabited these lands? This is ugly conservative revisionism. Downgrade the natives' importance, play up the white settlers. And you wonder why people keep throwing around racist. This country was stolen through genocide and deceit--do you deny this? Native Americans weren't saints, but don't act like what the 'settlers' did was just.

Only conservatives could downplay/deny our nation's immigrant history that LITERALLY occurred right from the beginning in order to strip/restrict those same rights from newer immigrants. Disgusting.

Full of people who have nothing in common with each other? If this were true (which its not), how would this make the country boring? If anything, it would be quite the opposite. Your logic is flawed and your biases are really showing now. What commonality should we all have then? I mean, besides language? Define this American commonality that 'newbie' immigrants should have to earn.

"Europe, on the other hand, is a fascinating patchwork quilt of different cultures that preserve their cultural differences instead of diluting them into the mush we have here." You're contradicting yourself so much here it isn't even funny. Which is it? Are we "full of people who have nothing in common with each other" or are we "diluted mush"? Should we preserve cultural differences (to include language, as Belgium and Canada) or should we all unite under the grand 'American' culture (still yet to be defined by you?)
Canada: word is Quebec wanted OUT of Canada unless the rest of that country allowed it to force French over English on the people who live in that province. That ain't tolerance.

American Indians: they had their share of nasty wars with each other before 1492 but, they "forget" those ugly parts of their histories and, blame the white man for their failures in life in 2015. Hell, they stared out in Asia and came here in different waves, NOT all at the same time.

Immigration: ALL countries in 2015 have laws to control it. NO reason for the US to be different.

You forget Europe not long ago was a seriously jacked up mess between Hitler 75 years ago and Russia 25 years ago owning the eastern part of it.

EVERYTHING you just said about the US can be said about Mexico with ITS nasty history.

If you don't like the way we roll in the US: feel free to find another country you like better. NO 1 is telling you to stay here. Sheesh!
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Old 03-02-2015, 06:59 AM
 
62,536 posts, read 28,742,976 times
Reputation: 18408
Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
And why do conservatives/rightists love to wear ignorance and fear like a badge of honor? There may be some hypocritical lefties, sure, but the vast majority of righties live in isolated, white communities devoid of real cultural interaction. Fact. You'll see that the enlightened blue cities and blue states are the most diverse and progressive. Red America? Not so much. The Right continues to hold America back.
Are you out of your mind? Most mainstream conservatives do live in diverse neighborhoods/cities. You can't escape it as we have been a racially diverse country since its founding. Only the elite who live in gated communities live like you are suggesting.

Hold America back from what?
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:06 AM
 
62,536 posts, read 28,742,976 times
Reputation: 18408
Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Ok, we finally get an answer. Not bad, but there are holes here.

First, I like the modest means bit, but there's always been wealthy immigrants to this country who had an entitlement complex and flashed cash. See slave owners, fur merchants, etc. And even those who weren't wealthy often felt entitled in this pursuit of the American Dream, at any cost. See Native American genocide, Manifest Destiny, gold rushes, etc. I'd argue that this country has never been about modesty when it comes to cash.

Furthermore, people didn't immediately go back to Italy, Ireland, etc. back then because travel was arduous and expensive to do so. Once airplanes come into the picture, this isn't the case. Plenty of anchor babies, cash sent back home, etc. with Italians, for example. This isn't just a Chinese phenomenon. Quit singling them out.

Your claim of people not bothering to learn English is dubious. Studies show that second and third generation immigrants always speak English. The first generation usually learns enough to get by. This is no different with the Chinese (see Jeremy Lin). Again, English isn't going anywhere.

People only associating with their own? Sounds like the Pennsylvania Dutch, the Orthodox Jews, Cajuns, white conservative Republicans, Nuyuricans, East LA Mexicans, Chicago Cubs fans, atheists, stamp collectors, tech tycoons etc. This isn't a unique phenomenon. Get in where you fit in. How this is a threat to America is beyond me. Should we all be the same?

We are an English-speaking, unified culture with Anglo-Saxon roots? What about the Spanish missionaries? French traders? Black slaves? Native Americans? Do those roots count to? Are we Catholic or Protestant? Mormon?
You apparently don't know the difference between our mainstream culture and language and the minority ones that live among us. Remain in denial if you wish. We are not a Hispanic, Asian, etc. country in "identity". Does that clear it up for you?
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:21 AM
 
Location: Manhattan, NYC
1,274 posts, read 972,968 times
Reputation: 1250
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Well said. I don't disagree with you on any of this.

But will you concede that France -- in spite of outside influences -- nevertheless does have a distinctive culture, and the United States likewise?

Americans may not be aware of the distinctiveness of our own culture simply because we, unlike Europeans, are not in close proximity to a great variety of different languages and cultures in other countries.

I think it is fair to say that Toqueville found a remarkable difference between America and Old World early on.

And just as France maintains its distinct culture in spite of outside influences, so will America -- unless we simply decide we are nothing but a blank slate to be written on by others.

Part of not becoming that blank slate is a certain resistance to immigration and multiculturalism....which I find healthy.
Yes absolutely, I will concede that France and the US do have a distinctive culture despite various external influences. On that you are right. I only meant to say that it was a moving line and sometimes, it does not move in the direction we want (more your point, probably...).

But for that, there needs to be some "agreements" between all American citizens, and that agreement seems to be lacking so far. That's only an observation, not a fate, so of course, if people are willing to change that and focus, debate on what the American culture is and how they can keep it unique, distinctive yet respectful of the country's History and social reality, I see no issue with that!

Last edited by Gasolin; 03-02-2015 at 07:30 AM..
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:32 AM
 
20,524 posts, read 15,833,748 times
Reputation: 5943
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gasolin View Post
Yes absolutely, I will concede that France and the US do have a distinctive culture. On that you are right. I only meant to say that it was a moving line and sometimes, it does not move in the direction we want (more your point, probably...).

But for that, there needs to be some "agreements" between al American citizens, and that agreement seems to be lacking so far. That's only an observation, not a fate, so of course, if people are willing to change that and focus, debate on what the American culture is and how they can keep it unique, distinctive yet respectful of the country's History and social reality, I see no issue with that!
We def have our differences, sorry to say. Tho France is having ITS own problems with some "Muslims" in 2015. But word is France pretty much FORCES its way of doing things onto people who move there like only "French" names can be given to kids born there and so on. Tho still has a LOT of Hispanic, Arab, German and Vietnamese last names but; to you and me, the people born there are def "French" in culture.
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Old 03-02-2015, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Southern California
493 posts, read 511,923 times
Reputation: 640
Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Ok, we finally get an answer. Not bad, but there are holes here.

First, I like the modest means bit, but there's always been wealthy immigrants to this country who had an entitlement complex and flashed cash. See slave owners, fur merchants, etc. And even those who weren't wealthy often felt entitled in this pursuit of the American Dream, at any cost. See Native American genocide, Manifest Destiny, gold rushes, etc. I'd argue that this country has never been about modesty when it comes to cash.

Furthermore, people didn't immediately go back to Italy, Ireland, etc. back then because travel was arduous and expensive to do so. Once airplanes come into the picture, this isn't the case. Plenty of anchor babies, cash sent back home, etc. with Italians, for example. This isn't just a Chinese phenomenon. Quit singling them out.

Your claim of people not bothering to learn English is dubious. Studies show that second and third generation immigrants always speak English. The first generation usually learns enough to get by. This is no different with the Chinese (see Jeremy Lin). Again, English isn't going anywhere.

People only associating with their own? Sounds like the Pennsylvania Dutch, the Orthodox Jews, Cajuns, white conservative Republicans, Nuyuricans, East LA Mexicans, Chicago Cubs fans, atheists, stamp collectors, tech tycoons etc. This isn't a unique phenomenon. Get in where you fit in. How this is a threat to America is beyond me. Should we all be the same?

We are an English-speaking, unified culture with Anglo-Saxon roots? What about the Spanish missionaries? French traders? Black slaves? Native Americans? Do those roots count to? Are we Catholic or Protestant? Mormon?
I wrote that they immigrants of yore were entitled to nothing...but the freedom and opportunity to achieve the American Dream. Wouldn't the Gold Rush, Manifest Destiny, etc. count as opportunity even if the results weren't so pretty? What is important is that the opportunity itself was there.

Where are these Italian anchor babies? The only Europeans who are coming here in any noticeable numbers to give birth to an American citizen baby to take home are Russians.

What about all those groups? They, as I mentioned, are among our culture's influences and origins from all over the world. And what do all those groups have in common? They can all communicate with each other despite their differences, thanks to our common language, English, which even East LA Mexicans, Amish, and Cajuns can speak in order to survive and thrive in the United States of America.
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Old 03-02-2015, 08:09 PM
 
62,536 posts, read 28,742,976 times
Reputation: 18408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
We def have our differences, sorry to say. Tho France is having ITS own problems with some "Muslims" in 2015. But word is France pretty much FORCES its way of doing things onto people who move there like only "French" names can be given to kids born there and so on. Tho still has a LOT of Hispanic, Arab, German and Vietnamese last names but; to you and me, the people born there are def "French" in culture.
Anyone who claims Europe is harmonious due to "multi-culturism" within their individual countries is living in a fantasy world. They need to start paying attention to the news. "Immigrants" are being forced out of many of their countries because of illegal entry and culture clashes.
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Old 03-02-2015, 10:43 PM
 
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,145,479 times
Reputation: 2919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
Canada: word is Quebec wanted OUT of Canada unless the rest of that country allowed it to force French over English on the people who live in that province. That ain't tolerance.

American Indians: they had their share of nasty wars with each other before 1492 but, they "forget" those ugly parts of their histories and, blame the white man for their failures in life in 2015. Hell, they stared out in Asia and came here in different waves, NOT all at the same time.

Immigration: ALL countries in 2015 have laws to control it. NO reason for the US to be different.

You forget Europe not long ago was a seriously jacked up mess between Hitler 75 years ago and Russia 25 years ago owning the eastern part of it.

EVERYTHING you just said about the US can be said about Mexico with ITS nasty history.

If you don't like the way we roll in the US: feel free to find another country you like better. NO 1 is telling you to stay here. Sheesh!
Canada: And look at the country now, unified. It's considered a 'cool' thing in Canada to be bilingual. Canadian society hasn't collapsed. Hell, part of Quebec's appeal is that it IS distinctively French speaking. Tourists go there SPECIFICALLY for that reason. This point of tolerance is moot.

American Indians/Native Americans: Why do you keep coming back to this? Yes, they fought. So did Europe. They also formed alliances, as well. By pointing out that they went to war occasionally, you imply that they deserved to be nearly wiped out--if they were more civilized, they wouldn't war with each other, much less the white man. I hope this isn't your intent because this line of reasoning is racist and is blaming the victim--something conservatives love to do. Just be honest--the early settlers were immigrants who forcibly took over lands that weren't theirs. This isn't liberal revisionism--this is the truth.

Immigration: We DO have laws on immigration. You just don't like them as they stand.

Why should I have to leave this country? I'm a native born citizen. And as far as how we 'roll', I'm not the one starting threads demonizing entire national and racial groups. I'm quite content with our immigration laws. If anything, I think they should be more lax.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:01 PM
 
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,145,479 times
Reputation: 2919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Are you out of your mind? Most mainstream conservatives do live in diverse neighborhoods/cities. You can't escape it as we have been a racially diverse country since its founding. Only the elite who live in gated communities live like you are suggesting.

Hold America back from what?
Really? Because it seems that most mainstream conservatives were the ones who participated in white flight. The ones who ran out to the suburbs where they were the majority, the ones who opposed busing. The people who don't live in diverse places like NYC or LA. Conservatives tend to espouse a colorblind ideology, but usually end up practicing a very different one in reality. If the majority of your support and votes come from rich, heterosexual white males, you've failed to be inclusive as a party. Hence the scramble for Republicans to now 'diversify'. Call it reverse racism or liberal intolerance or whatever you want, but it's the truth. Just look at an election map. None of the truly diverse cities or states voted Republican in 2012. If blacks don't vote for mainstream conservatives, if Asians don't vote for mainstream conservatives, if Latinos don't vote for mainstream conservatives, if gays don't vote for mainstream conservatives, and if women don't vote for mainstream conservatives? Maybe 'mainstream' conservatives aren't so mainstream. This whole tirade against Chinese immigration is just more proof of the right's diversity problem. In this very real sense, conservatives are holding back America.
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Old 03-02-2015, 11:04 PM
 
Location: Watching half my country turn into Gilead
3,530 posts, read 4,145,479 times
Reputation: 2919
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
You apparently don't know the difference between our mainstream culture and language and the minority ones that live among us. Remain in denial if you wish. We are not a Hispanic, Asian, etc. country in "identity". Does that clear it up for you?
So we're simply a white country that speaks English? That is our national identity? And all other 'minority' identities are moot?
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