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So prices go up. MOST of the things you talk about ain't that important like as in a person buys 2 instead of 3 shirts and so on.
Where in this reasoning do you see that prices go up? On the contrary, they are lowered compared to what they would have been with higher wages to produce retail goods and services.
What I am describing is simply the fact that it's the goods and services market that structurally adjusts to immigration, not the job market.
I agree with most of what you said but I would just like to clarify something. Only 3% of illegals are picking crops the rest are doing jobs that Americans have always done such as the construction and many other blue-collared just that use to pay a living wage. Even for crop picking there are unlimited H-2A visas for legal, foreign workers. As you said though, illegals get hired instead to increase their profits, pass little to nothing on to the consumer in the way of savings but pass their social costs unto us. Your 25 cent tomato is really 50 cents.
Alright, now we reached the point of reasoning where you do see that immigration does provide extra profit to the companies (or call it employers in your retail service case). Which is a good start.
Before moving on, I will still stay that prices of services and goods would have risen more without immigration rather than with. This example is not directly related to immigration but more to off-shoring / outsourcing. Look at the t-shirts prices for some popular brands. There is no way such t-shirts are provided with this price if done locally in the Western world, because of the wages.
If you wanted to buy a locally made product or a product made in the West (luxurious items), you do know that you are going to pay more. That's an intuitive way to put it.
So I would nuance your sentence by saying that some companies can keep charging the same price as before even when using immigration thus increasing even more their profit. Otherwise, the prices are going down and services and goods became more affordable for most of the population but companies are still having profits instead of going bankrupt.
The key points are the following:
- Companies do see more profit to share
- But those in companies who benefit those profits do not have to bear the social cost because they live in high-end areas where they do not see the day to day social effect of immigration, in whichever form
- The popular mass does see the social cost because they live next to the immigration (often the poorest of the society for those doing the low end jobs)
- But does not see the profit side which would have helped them to elevate themselves socially and economically
Because of that unbalance that is very core to capitalism, you have the feeling that immigration brings negative points only. In fact, in brings a lot but you never benefit from it. Except for some prices drop.
Therefore, the highest priority action is not to stop immigration (which can have an impact etc... but in the end, it provides profit to companies and lower cost for consumers), but to make sure the profits of those companies get shared better across all employees so that they can also get the economic benefits.
And then, we can talk about immigration, in whichever form. But stopping immigration will not really change the deal because structurally, an unemployed person, American or not, will compete for a job and therefore, your wages will not go up as long as there are some unemployment, mostly for non-specialized jobs.
In addition, immigrants or Americans are first and foremost workers or employees, especially in the low end jobs. As long as you focus on employees instead of wondering why you do not get more of the profit generated by companies, you are helping companies to not worry about raising wages. You are just "fighting" your peers from the companies' standpoint, even if you want to discriminate immigrants vs Americans.
With highly specialized jobs in the high end job market, it's a different story not related to wages. But statistically, not everyone can go for those jobs (there is a natural cliff effect). And I think for those, it's quite straight forward.
One exception here: indeed at double digit unemployment rate, I think it is fair to try searching for a person on the job market locally before going for immigration.
But immigration laws in the US are quite strict, you do need a working visa if you're an immigrant.
And therefore there are only 2 options:
- For retail or low ends jobs, "illegals" maybe
- Otherwise the remaining immigration is for specialized jobs where companies could not find an American
I work in a very specific field and my job is highly specialized, and yes it is difficult to see good candidates. Pay is secondary. So I do think it's a realistic situation when you say you do not find Americans for those jobs. Now for some IT positions that are not that advanced, I do hear some "abuse" but for me, that's a totally different matter.
I am fine with immigration by those who can offer us specialized skills we need, bring honor to our country (great artists and thinkers), fill a labor shortage in low-end occupations, etc.
The trouble is, our legal immigration system is not based on any of that, but (from 1965 on, thanks to Ted Kennedy) on family reunification. It also favors the Third World over Europe.
I understand that it is much more difficult for an Englishman, a Frenchman or a German to legally immigrate here than, say, a Mexican (most of our legal immigrants, I understand, are from Mexico.)
So most of our LEGAL immigrants are poor, unskilled and uneducated.
If most of them were picking our crops and we had a shortage of people who could do that, that would be one thing. But they are spread across all unskilled and semi-skilled areas of the economy, and -- guess what -- we have millions of unskilled and semi-skilled legal U.S. citizens who need the jobs legal immigrants (and illegals) are taking. So millions of able-bodied legal U.S. citizens are not working. They are on welfare, or dealing drugs, or committing crimes, or whatever.
Your own situation of IT is unusual, because the U.S. (both as a result of legal immigration and talent already here) has basically been creating and building the high tech infrastructure for the entire world, and doing so in a short period of time.
So it's no surprise that we would not have enough engineers in our native born population and would have to search for talent overseas -- in Europe, in India, in China. I have no objection to that. If you have something that we need, then of course you should be welcomed.
But -- and this is a big "but" -- we have to be careful that even when it comes to high-tech, employers are not displacing qualified Americans so that they can pay foreigners less. The recent firing of roughly 500 American tech employees by Southern California Edison and their replacement by foreign workers is an obvious abuse of the h-1b system by a company that is already notorious for its corruption. Edison even had the nerve to demand that the Americans train their own replacements.
As for things being more expensive if we didn't have offshoring of jobs, free trade with China, and massive legal and illegal immigration, again it comes back to the employer. Is he going to lower his prices because his labor costs are lower, or is he just going to put the difference in his pocket? Human psychology dictates the latter.The only logical counter to this is companies trying to underbid each other in order to corner the market. That is certainly a factor, but not the only one.
Last edited by dechatelet; 06-02-2015 at 11:11 PM..
I am fine with immigration by those who can offer us specialized skills we need, bring honor to our country (great artists and thinkers), fill a labor shortage in low-end occupations, etc.
The trouble is, our legal immigration system is not based on any of that, but (from 1965 on, thanks to Ted Kennedy) on family reunification. It also favors the Third World over Europe.
I understand that it is much more difficult for an Englishman, a Frenchman or a German to legally immigrate here than, say, a Mexican (most of our legal immigrants, I understand, are from Mexico.)
So most of our LEGAL immigrants are poor, unskilled and uneducated.
If most of them were picking our crops and we had a shortage of people who could do that, that would be one thing. But they are spread across all unskilled and semi-skilled areas of the economy, and -- guess what -- we have millions of unskilled and semi-skilled legal U.S. citizens who need the jobs legal immigrants (and illegals) are taking. So millions of able-bodied legal U.S. citizens are not working. They are on welfare, or dealing drugs, or committing crimes, or whatever.
Your own situation of IT is unusual, because the U.S. (both as a result of legal immigration and talent already here) has basically been creating and building the high tech infrastructure for the entire world, and doing so in a short period of time.
So it's no surprise that we would not have enough engineers in our native born population and would have to search for talent overseas -- in Europe, in India, in China. I have no objection to that. If you have something that we need, then of course you should be welcomed.
But -- and this is a big "but" -- we have to be careful that even when it comes to high-tech, employers are not displacing qualified Americans so that they can pay foreigners less. The recent firing of roughly 500 American tech employees by Southern California Edison and their replacement by foreign workers is an obvious abuse of the h-1b system by a company that is already notorious for its corruption. Edison even had the nerve to demand that the Americans train their own replacements.
As for things being more expensive if we didn't have offshoring of jobs, free trade with China, and massive legal and illegal immigration, again it comes back to the employer. Is he going to lower his prices because his labor costs are lower, or is he just going to put the difference in his pocket? Human psychology dictates the latter.The only logical counter to this is companies trying to underbid each other in order to corner the market. That is certainly a factor, but not the only one.
Your own situation of IT is unusual, because the U.S. (both as a result of legal immigration and talent already here) has basically been creating and building the high tech infrastructure for the entire world, and doing so in a short period of time.
So it's no surprise that we would not have enough engineers in our native born population and would have to search for talent overseas -- in Europe, in India, in China. I have no objection to that. If you have something that we need, then of course you should be welcomed.
I am not in IT but am merely describing the complains I hear from people saying that their "basic" IT jobs are being replaced people from immigration.
The specialized jobs I am talking about are those where one field is not enough, e.g. you need to have a functional understanding of financial instruments + software and database knowledge, etc...
The key skill is the ability to be autonomous and learn alone if required. You need a certain degree of motivation and methodology for that.
It's hogwash about prices going up without illegal alien labor anyway. The employers merely pocket the profits and pass their social costs unto us so they are no bargain for regular Americans especially when their buying power is zilch when an illegal alien takes their job.
Exactly. Just the same as the Walton family does regarding their Walmart employees.
I am not in IT but am merely describing the complains I hear from people saying that their "basic" IT jobs are being replaced people from immigration.
The specialized jobs I am talking about are those where one field is not enough, e.g. you need to have a functional understanding of financial instruments + software and database knowledge, etc...
The key skill is the ability to be autonomous and learn alone if required. You need a certain degree of motivation and methodology for that.
Indians remaining on H-1B are now taking many of the individual site IT leadership, staffing-company recruiting, and less specialized programming roles in the U.S. now.
I understand that it is much more difficult for an Englishman, a Frenchman or a German to legally immigrate here than, say, a Mexican (most of our legal immigrants, I understand, are from Mexico.)
So most of our LEGAL immigrants are poor, unskilled and uneducated.
Mexican master- and journeyman-level labor in the NYC area is prized over any other. They're putting together the structural and finish in most of the residential housing in the city; have been for years. They're regarded as artisans, they also lay masonry like angels.
The inner-city unemployed citizens seem contented to hang out in clumps on door stoops and on sidewalks and next to corner convenience stores nearby and do their patter.
Mexican master- and journeyman-level labor in the NYC area is prized over any other. They're putting together the structural and finish in most of the residential housing in the city; have been for years. They're regarded as artisans, they also lay masonry like angels.
The inner-city unemployed citizens seem contented to hang out in clumps on door stoops and on sidewalks and next to corner convenience stores nearby and do their patter.
If those Mexicans are here legally; I'm good with that. If here illegally; they need to be arrested then deported.
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