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How about if they decide they won't deliver books involving gay sex, but will deliver those about straight sex? As long as they aren't delivering those books to anyone, it's OK, right?
Yup because anyone can order a gay sex book and anyone can order a straight sex book. They wouldn't be refusing to ship to gays the gay sex book because they would also be refusing to ship the gay book to a straight person if that straight person chose to purchase that gay sex book for whatever reason (the reason that straight person ordered that gay sex book in this instance isn't relevant).
FedEx Corp is the world's top express delivery service, thanks in large part to its close relationship with members of Congress and the White House. For years, the company has been a major campaign contributor to both Democrats and Republicans and is famous for its unique lobbying tactics, including the fleet of private planes that it keeps on stand-by for lawmakers who need to jet off at a moment's notice.
It's completely relevant, a difference that makes no difference is no different. If UPS and Fedex already transport tools and equipment that can be used to manufacture firearms, and even completed firearms themselves, then the reasons that they're claiming are a fallacy ... I'm not buying the liability, and a room full of lawyers generally will come to the immediate conclusion of No.
I imagine there's a difference that makes a world of difference, and that's why the lawyers at UPS and FedEX flagged this one - and only this one - particular, specific product.
Not that it matters one lick. UPS can refuse to ship Ghost Gunner for ANY REASON it wants - be it fear of legal liability, an actual hatred of guns, or some whack-a-doodle reason like they have a policy of not shipping any product with an alliterative name.
Shipping Ghost Gunner is a service. UPS is under no obligation to offer any particular service for sale.
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But this isn't a retailer, it's a shipping company
So? It makes absolutely no difference. A company that sells services is under no obligation to sell any particular service just like a company that sells products is under no obligation to sell any particular product.
UPS can refuse to ship Ghost Gunner just like a baker doesn't have to bake cookies, a kitchen remodeler doesn't have to remodel bathrooms, Barnes and Noble doesn't have to sell the Anarchists Cookbook, and Hobby Lobby doesn't have to sell dildos.
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and could that shipping company determine it was not going to ship "God Loves Gay Marriage", or "God Hates Gay People", even though it ships millions of books around the globe?
Absolutely. UPS could refuse to ship any book for any reason - just like any retailer could refuse to stock any book for any reason. They could refuse to ship "God Loves Gay Marriage" because they're a devoutly Muslim company that believes gay marriage is a sin. They could refuse to ship "Harry Potter" because the CEO of UPS doesn't like J.K. Rowling.
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Could it for example refuse to ship copies of the Bible, or Qu'ran, because you know liability?
Again, absolutely. Again, FedEx could refuse to ship the Bible or the Qu'ran for ANY REASON it wants.
How about if they decide they won't deliver books involving gay sex, but will deliver those about straight sex? As long as they aren't delivering those books to anyone, it's OK, right?
I imagine there's a difference that makes a world of difference, and that's why the lawyers at UPS and FedEX flagged this one - and only this one - particular, specific product.
Since the design is online (they use an open source design), it's a standard 3 axis CNC machine.
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Originally Posted by hammertime33
Not that it matters one lick. UPS can refuse to ship Ghost Gunner for ANY REASON it wants - be it fear of legal liability, an actual hatred of guns, or some whack-a-doodle reason like they have a policy of not shipping any product with an alliterative name.
Shipping Ghost Gunner is a service. UPS is under no obligation to offer any particular service for sale.
Nope UPS/Fedex are what is known as common carriers, there are rules and regulations that determine what they can and cannot do. They can refuse to carry CNC machines, they cannot refuse to carry a CNC machine from a specific manufacturer, that would be a violation of unfair competition regulations (common carriers cannot discriminate equivalent products from competing businesses due to their nature they can unfairly affect the free market).
For instance Fedex/UPS cannot enter into a contract with Amazon that would prohibit UPS/Fedex from entering into contracts with other online retailers, similarly UPS/Fedex cannot refuse to ship from any other online retailer (regardless of whether they are contracted by those other retailers, or whether those retailers are just shipping according to published rates). Doing so would unfairly disadvantage every other online retailer but Amazon.
In this case the situation is reversed, UPS/Fedex are refusing to ship from one manufacturer, thereby unfairly disadvantaging that manufacturer with unreasonable prejudice. The machine they make is the same in function to thousands of other machines that UPS/Fedex ship from retailers and manufacturers to customers and retailers. Even if it were not, but some coalescence of other technologies (for instance a CNC machine, lathe and 3d Printer) that were all shipped individually by UPS/Fedex, unless there was some form of legal prior restraint on distribution of that coalescence then it would be unfairly disadvantaging that manufacturer.
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Originally Posted by hammertime33
So? It makes absolutely no difference. A company that sells services is under no obligation to sell any particular service just like a company that sells products is under no obligation to sell any particular product.
Agreed they are under no obligation to sell any particular service, however if they wish to retain their common carrier status they must abide by the regulations of that status.
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Originally Posted by hammertime33
UPS can refuse to ship Ghost Gunner just like a baker doesn't have to bake cookies, a kitchen remodeler doesn't have to remodel bathrooms, Barnes and Noble doesn't have to sell the Anarchists Cookbook, and Hobby Lobby doesn't have to sell dildos.
You're discussing retailers. Retailers while a business are not in the same business as common carriers, and common carriers are not in the same business as high street banks. Different laws and regulations apply. All businesses are not regulated identically.
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Originally Posted by hammertime33
Absolutely. UPS could refuse to ship any book for any reason - just like any retailer could refuse to stock any book for any reason. They could refuse to ship "God Loves Gay Marriage" because they're a devoutly Muslim company that believes gay marriage is a sin. They could refuse to ship "Harry Potter" because the CEO of UPS doesn't like J.K. Rowling.
They can refuse to ship books or printed materials. However they cannot refuse to ship one type of book or printed material and not another. That would be a violation of common carrier regulations. In your example JK Rowling would be unfairly disadvantaged by the actions of UPS.
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Originally Posted by hammertime33
Again, absolutely. Again, FedEx could refuse to ship the Bible or the Qu'ran for ANY REASON it wants.
Only if it does not ship books or printed materials.
Since the design is online (they use an open source design), it's a standard 3 axis CNC machine.
Maybe it has to do with Ghost Gunner's marketing. I know nothing about gun laws, so this is speculative - but perhaps somewhere in the US (or federally) it's illegal to either manufacture or own a modern semi-automatic rifle without serial numbers.
Now, if a company advertises that their product lets you "Manufacture Semi-Automatic Rifles Without Serial Numbers" (which in my speculation would be illegal at least somewhere UPS and FedEx ship), the company that makes the product could end up being in big legal trouble. They could be on the hook civilly if someone uses a gun crafted with their machine in a crime, and they could even be criminally liable for criminal conspiracy to illegally manufacture and possess a firearm.
And a company that shipped such a machine knowing about the advertising would have the exact same liability - both the civil and criminal liability.
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Nope UPS/Fedex are what is known as common carriers, there are rules and regulations that determine what they can and cannot do. They can refuse to carry CNC machines, they cannot refuse to carry a CNC machine from a specific manufacturer, that would be a violation of unfair competition regulations (common carriers cannot discriminate equivalent products from competing businesses due to their nature they can unfairly affect the free market).
Firstly, please show me this particular regulation.
Secondly, even if it does exist, it doesn't change my underlying point at all. UPS refusing to ship a specific product for anybody or to anybody (assuming they're not disallowed from doing so by common carrier law or a fiduciary duty to its shareholders) is like a Jewish deli not selling ham sandwiches - NOT like a Jewish deli refusing to serve Muslims. Or like a Christian Bookstore not stocking the Gay Karma Sutra - not like a Christian Bookstore refusing to sell to gay people.
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