Don't Ron Paul fans realize their ideology is pretty much the same as Marxism-Leninism? (Mexicans, legal)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Some libertarian ideas, like liberal views on social rights, are pretty valid stances, but their stance of property rights and private ownership > all else is rather romantic.
Libertarians can sit back and snipe at current policy decisions cause there never has been a truly libertarian society. Or maybe there has been, in Central America you can pay the police for service, and that's pretty libertarian, private ownership!!! And 12th century Ireland was pretty libertarian too. The landlords had everything privately owned!
The libertarian trap, which many libertarians fail to acknowledge is that other governments arise when the current one is restricted too severely or demolished. HOAs came up in Houston to make up for the lack of zoning... Just cause its not THE government doesn't mean some government isn't in charge. A corporation is very much a government.
Again, I think libertarians have a lot of valid points, but a lot of hardcore libertarian founding fathers, Mises, Rothbard... really had rather fallacious arguments for their system.
I think libertarians are willing to compromise these social liberal points if it gets in the way of their economic policy too. Like they wouldn't have a problem with businesses refusing to accept gays or minorities. It's just a ploy they use to encourage people who would otherwise be left wingers to support right wing politics.
The philosophy of libertarianism is based on the principles of self-ownership, property rights, and non-aggression. I'm not Libertarian as in the party, but I'm philosophically libertarian.
Simply put, it's just the logical, consistent belief in individual rights. Do you not believe that every individual has the right to their body, time, and what they produce?
Some libertarian ideas, like liberal views on social rights, are pretty valid stances, but their stance of property rights and private ownership > all else is rather romantic.
Libertarians can sit back and snipe at current policy decisions cause there never has been a truly libertarian society. Or maybe there has been, in Central America you can pay the police for service, and that's pretty libertarian, private ownership!!! And 12th century Ireland was pretty libertarian too. The landlords had everything privately owned!
The libertarian trap, which many libertarians fail to acknowledge is that other governments arise when the current one is restricted too severely or demolished. HOAs came up in Houston to make up for the lack of zoning... Just cause its not THE government doesn't mean some government isn't in charge. A corporation is very much a government.
Again, I think libertarians have a lot of valid points, but a lot of hardcore libertarian founding fathers, Mises, Rothbard... really had rather fallacious arguments for their system.
Government is only government when people recognize their right to rule, otherwise it's just a random gang or mafia. Nobody calls them government. A person or group can only have power if (1) people believe it's okay for them to rule, so they call them the government (so if everyone just ignored them they have no power anymore), or (2) they just outgun everyone and control by sheer force (in which case it doesn't matter what type of government you had, if any. They just take over).
I guess I'd have to ask how, specifically, a company would become a government or act as one. Do they convince people to make them the new government or do they somehow stockpile tons of weapons and build a giant army? How would they get the money to do that, first of all, and why would people keep supporting them if they were doing this?
The government relies on people seeing it's "right to rule" as legitimate, and allowing them to tax in order to fund what they want to do. If people don't recognize them as legitimate, where does the money come from? They'd also be vastly outnumbered, so they'd have to be really really powerful to win...
I think libertarians are willing to compromise these social liberal points if it gets in the way of their economic policy too. Like they wouldn't have a problem with businesses refusing to accept gays or minorities. It's just a ploy they use to encourage people who would otherwise be left wingers to support right wing politics.
Yes they would have a problem with it. Quit lying about others beliefs.
Libertarians don't want government interfering with the property rights of those individuals. Society will take care of that problem. The civil disobedience practiced by we the people during the Civil Rights marches is a prime example. Government, who made those repugnant racist laws btw, came after the fact.
I guess I'd have to ask how, specifically, a company would become a government or act as one. Do they convince people to make them the new government or do they somehow stockpile tons of weapons and build a giant army? How would they get the money to do that, first of all, and why would people keep supporting them if they were doing this?
Here's how I see it. If the government disappeared overnight, who are the other groups that could fill in some of the vacuum to prevent chaos and keep the infrastructure buzzing? There are corporations, religious groups, non-profit organizations, and the military. Out of those four the military and corporations by far have the most resources, so it makes sense that they would be the ones who would fill in the vacuum.
Here's how I see it. If the government disappeared overnight, who are the other groups that could fill in some of the vacuum to prevent chaos and keep the infrastructure buzzing? There are corporations, religious groups, non-profit organizations, and the military. Out of those four the military and corporations by far have the most resources, so it makes sense that they would be the ones who would fill in the vacuum.
Who says they want government to disappear overnight? Not the backers of freedom and rights like Ron Paul supporters.
Yes they would have a problem. Quit lying about others beliefs.
Libertarians don't want government interfering with the property rights of those individuals. Society will take care of that problem. The civil disobedience practiced by we the people during the Civil Rights marches is a prime example. Government, who made those repugnant racist laws btw, came after the fact.
Don't you agree that given the choice, most American libertarians would take a Christian conservative over a socialist? It's not that they like Christian conservatives, it's just if forced to choose they'd take a socially oppressive candidate over someone who wanted to redistribute wealth.
That is, libertarians are still right wingers and conservatives, just a different branch of them than the Christian conservatives who want to ban drugs and gay marriage.
Christian conservatives are pretty much liberals compared to Ron Paul and his ilk. Even most Republicans wouldn't go as far as abolishing Social Security for seniors and forcing them to rely on charity, but that's a pretty standard viewpoint of libertarians.
I've never talked to a libertarian who actually had contempt for the military. They'll bash politicians all day, but won't lay a pinky upon the holy Armed Forces. Do libertarians have contempt for the wars? Yes, but mostly for fiscal reasons. Most libertarians support the idea of the military being insular which would probably mean they'd start bossing Americans around. You think Ron Paul would bring all our troops home and just have them play quidditch or something?
I don't think he'd keep that promise though. I guarantee you if Ron Paul won in 2008 he would have continued the wars just like Obama did. Perhaps partially out of necessity, but libertarians seem to always be willing to compromise with conservatives if the alternative means supporting socialist policies. Plus the wars are good for business, and according to libertarians what's good for big business is what's right, period.
Conservatives arent pro war so you are just starting with a bad premise. They ARE mostly pro country, which means they are against illegal immigration.
We could have our troops guard OUR border for a change.
Don't you agree that given the choice, most American libertarians would take a Christian conservative over a socialist? It's not that they like Christian conservatives, it's just if forced to choose they still seem to prefer politicians who want to control people's social liberties over a social liberal who supports distribution of wealth.
You act like they have to choose between the two when they don't. Here again you make up the rules and then argue them.
Quote:
That is, libertarians are still right wingers and conservatives, just a different branch of them than the Christian conservatives who want to ban drugs and gay marriage.
Christian conservatives are pretty much liberals compared to Ron Paul and his ilk. Even most Republicans wouldn't go as far as abolishing Social Security for seniors and forcing them to rely on charity, but that's a pretty standard viewpoint of libertarians.
Like I said earlier, your one and only problem with Paul is that he did not have a (D) after his name.
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,325 posts, read 54,330,205 times
Reputation: 40716
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
in some ways, obama, reflects the problems with libertarian beliefs..
He ran around campaigning on things like, minding our own business, not starting wars, not invading sovereign territories, etc.
Didnt work out very well, did it?
Can you make the case that not minding our own business, starting wars, and invading sovereign territories were better policies?
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
, in Central America you can pay the police for service, and that's pretty libertarian, private ownership!!! And 12th century Ireland was pretty libertarian too. The landlords had everything privately owned!