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I think this is a profound point..the very human tendency for a new 'convert' to want to convert everybody else. It happens when one 'discovers' a new movie--or a new reataurant---a new church---or a new vacation spot. Suddenly, 'he' just KNOWS that everyone would LOVE to hear about it--they've just been waiting to be 'indoctrinated'. He KNOWS they'll 'thank him' for enlightening them....
So you're saying that, for at least some people, the natural tendency is to prefer slavery?
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200 years ago, we "discovered' democracy (at least, SOME Americans were eligible)....then we "swore off" slavery....at some later date, we decided NOT to exterminate the remaining Indians--to allow women to vote--and a few decades ago, we "discovered" civil rights for ALL races.
Well, the Greeks discovered democracy. We altered it a bit to become a Republic. In fact, it is our current trend towards true democracy that is going to do us in just as surely as it did the Athenians.
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Now, we're on FIRE to 'civilize" the rest of the world--to "teach" modern civilization to societies thousands of years old. We're going to spread democracy, civil rights, affirmative action, racial and religious tolerance, women's rights, environmental consciousness, and low-calorie eating habits to the whole benighted WORLD!! Like it or not, it's for their OWN GOOD, and someday, they'll thank us for it. I just shudder to think what "they" might have done, had "we" not come along when we did (now) to "recue" them from themselves. (Then we WONDER why we occasionally get 'laughed at')....(?)
Well, all cultural relativism aside, freedom is always better than slavery. Unless you are the slave owner, I guess, right?
Honestly, though, I have no desire to civilize the world. If people are unwilling to try and free themselves, I don't care to send Americans in to free them. Unless it is in our best interests to do so. Like at the end of WW2...it was in our best interests to have democratic Germany and Japan on our side. Right now, like it or not, we are better served by a democratic Iraq than we are by a despotic Iraq.
I do feel that most people, if given the choice, would choose freedom; however, I don't feel the need to give it to them unless it also benefits me...killing two birds with one stone, so to speak.
So you're saying that, for at least some people, the natural tendency is to prefer slavery?
Well, the Greeks discovered democracy. We altered it a bit to become a Republic. In fact, it is our current trend towards true democracy that is going to do us in just as surely as it did the Athenians.
Well, all cultural relativism aside, freedom is always better than slavery. Unless you are the slave owner, I guess, right?
Honestly, though, I have no desire to civilize the world. If people are unwilling to try and free themselves, I don't care to send Americans in to free them. Unless it is in our best interests to do so. Like at the end of WW2...it was in our best interests to have democratic Germany and Japan on our side. Right now, like it or not, we are better served by a democratic Iraq than we are by a despotic Iraq.
I do feel that most people, if given the choice, would choose freedom; however, I don't feel the need to give it to them unless it also benefits me...killing two birds with one stone, so to speak.
I'm just saying that because something makes "all the sense in the world" to me, doesn't mean I can project that onto others. Yes, of COURSE, I'd choose freedom over slavery---to me that's a "no brainer". But if only what "made sense" was how we 'did things', you'd think the entire female population of the Middle East would "rise up" against their own husbands and male relatives-- after all, don't they want "Equal Rights" with men? I sure would---but apparently, they don't. Try to bring them "freedom", and you'd get 'attacked' by both men AND women.
I'm a Catholic. We have some pretty strict rules. Still, I wouldn't want the US Army to storm The Vatican and kidnap the Pope, so we Catholics could be "free" from his rule. That kind of 'freedom' wouldn't be appreciated. If you 'liberated' Catholics in that way, they'd condemn you, not 'thank' you.
I'm not sure whether the slaves still in bondage today in parts of Africa would 'welcome' being liberated or not...perhaps the very act of being 'liberated' might prove to be more upsetting to them than continuing 'life as usual'. Depends, I suppose, on how badly they're being abused--who was doing the 'liberating'....and how they would view their own freedom. It might be preferable to be held in bondage by Muslims, than to be freed by infidels...I couldn't say.
Some of us THOUGHT we were going to be praised for "freeing" Iraq from Saddam and his monstrous, murderous, sadistic sons. Boy, were WE ever mistaken! Though MOST Americans would say it's "obvious" that such a brutal regime's overthrow would be greeted with wild rejoicing, it's not that simple. A good number of people in Iraq seem to mourn the passing of Saddam's nightmarish regime. There are Russians who "miss" the days of communism. North Koreans apparently have no desire to be 'liberated' from their tight, isolated little society. Who are we to judge?
Seems hard for us as "logical" Americans to comprehend this, but life's not simple, and cultures do have profoundly different ways of looking at things. That's my point....
Don't want to sound unfeeling, but I lean heavily toward the "market forces" theory when it comes to 'helping' others overseas.(more so NOW than ever). Basically, I believe that people will adopt "new" ways of thinking and living, at such time as they get sick and tired of the "old" ways.
Whether it's women's rights, an end to religious violence, democracy, or indoor plumbing, people have to grow FED UP with the status quo, in order to change. It can't be forced. At that time, they MAY choose to ask for help. Helping people is fine---doing it FOR them is silly...and could very well be perceived as "annoying".
I think it was Israeli prime minister Golda Maier years ago who said "the Palestinians will stop their suicidal violence, on the day that they decide they love their children more than they hate us (the Jews)." Regardless of the particulars of THAT issue, I think it illustrates my point. People will adapt new behaviors ,when they get completely disenchanted with the OLD behaviors.
I'm just saying because something makes "all the sense in the world" to me, I can't project that onto others. Yes, of COURSE, I'd choose freedom over slavery---to me that's a "no brainer". But if only what "made sense" was how we 'did things', you'd think the entire female population of the Middle East would "rise up" against their own husbands and male realtives-- after all, don't they want "Equal Rights" with men? I sure would---but apparently, they don't. Try to bring them "freedom", and you'd get 'attacked' by both men AND women.
I'm a Catholic. We have some pretty strict rules. Still, I wouldn't want the US Army to storm The Vatican and kidnap the Pope, so we Catholics could be "free" from his rule. That 'freedom' wouldn't be appreciated.
I'm not sure whether the slaves still in bondage today in parts of Africa would 'welcome' being liberated or not...perhaps the very act of being 'liberated' might prove to be more upsetting to them than continuing 'life as usual'. Depends, I suppose, on how badly they're being abused--who was doing the 'liberating'....and how they would view their own freedom. Some of us THOUGHT we were going to be praised for "freeing" Iraq from Saddam and his monstrous, murderous, sadistic sons. Boy, were WE ever mistaken! Though MOST Americans would say it's "obvious" that such a brutal regime's overthrow would be greeted with wild rejoicing, it's not that simple. A good number of people in Iraq seem to mourn the passing of Saddam's nightmarish regime. There are Russians who "miss" the days of communism. North Koreans apparently have no desire to be 'liberated' from their tight, isolated little society. Who are we to judge?
Seems hard for us as "logical" Americans to comprehend this, but life's not simple, and cultures do have profoundly different ways of looking at things. That's my point....
And abused women stay with them men because they love them and just know that their men love them back.
BTW, the people that miss brutal dictatorships are usually the people that, ya know, were power under those brutal dictatorships...just pointing that out.
Although there are plenty of blacks in South Africa who long for the days of Apartheid because at least there was order and food...so should we conclude that, perhaps, we should not have been so quick and eager to bring down the white government in that country? After all, look at what has replaced it...chaos, starvation, etc...
Anyway, go back and read what I actually wrote, will you please? I said that while I do think that most human beings, deep down, do desire freedom, even if they haven't tasted enough of it to really know what it is, much like the woman who has gone from abusive man to abusive man doesn't really know what it's like to be with a decent guy, I don't think it's the job of the United States to go in and liberate them. Unless it's in our own best interest...then I say liberate away.
And abused women stay with them men because they love them and just know that their men love them back.
BTW, the people that miss brutal dictatorships are usually the people that, ya know, were power under those brutal dictatorships...just pointing that out.
Although there are plenty of blacks in South Africa who long for the days of Apartheid because at least there was order and food...so should we conclude that, perhaps, we should not have been so quick and eager to bring down the white government in that country? After all, look at what has replaced it...chaos, starvation, etc...
Anyway, go back and read what I actually wrote, will you please? I said that while I do think that most human beings, deep down, do desire freedom, even if they haven't tasted enough of it to really know what it is, much like the woman who has gone from abusive man to abusive man doesn't really know what it's like to be with a decent guy, I don't think it's the job of the United States to go in and liberate them. Unless it's in our own best interest...then I say liberate away.
I read what you wrote. I then added my own thoughts. That's what goes on in a forum. Many of my thoughts concur with what you wrote, a few do not.
Much of MY point was remarking upon our inability to see what "makes sense" to people in other cultures. Sometimes we "see" their viewpoint, other times we miss it entirely.
Sometimes, people in our own "third world" (our inner-city neighborhoods) suffer greatly from crime and violence. This causes them to complain. But they complain much LOUDER on occasion, when the "cops" show up and do something 'wrong'. Much as these folks suffer from their own neighborhood criminals, it seems they have a visceral reaction to the "authorities" that looks very much like the "victims" are siding with the "bad guys", so great is their distrust of 'the system". Makes no sense to ME, but it does to them.
What I always find ironic about these discussions are the many who on the one hand will denounce mulitculturalism as a fool's dream, then turn around and voice their eager support to set up an American style Democracy in the Middle East. Like they are suddenly going to turn into tolerant softies for cultural and religious diversity in Iraq. Seems kind of illogical...
Good point.
Everyone has made thoughtful points here.
The high school in the article sounds a lot like the one I (and later one of my kids) attended. Our school was not this perfect utopia but it definitely was diverse and, as the article states, kids were "first and foremost human beings."
Multiculturalism and the melting pot are not IMHO mutually exclusive.
In the article below, a Jacksonville high school is faced with what I hope will become a new learning situation:
Ferzana Rajpoot, whose parents were born in Pakistan, said that at one point in class her teacher referred to all Muslims as terrorists. (http://www.news4jax.com/news/15133424/detail.html?subid=10101101 - broken link)
Good point.
Everyone has made thoughtful points here.
The high school in the article sounds a lot like the one I (and later one of my kids) attended. Our school was not this perfect utopia but it definitely was diverse and, as the article states, kids were "first and foremost human beings."
Multiculturalism and the melting pot are not IMHO mutually exclusive.
In the article below, a Jacksonville high school is faced with what I hope will become a new learning situation:
Ferzana Rajpoot, whose parents were born in Pakistan, said that at one point in class her teacher referred to all Muslims as terrorists. (http://www.news4jax.com/news/15133424/detail.html?subid=10101101 - broken link)
Good post and positive attitude. Optimism is ALWAYS better than pessimism, all else being equal, and the High School scenario you describe is certainly a start.
I'm not convinced, though, that the controlled, monitored situation within a High School can be called truly representative of life outside in the "real world" of adult society. High School students are sort of a specialized, hand-picked "captive audience". We can sort of "keep an eye" on High School students, and pressure them to conform to certain standards that don't apply 'outside the campus'..
Still, I'll concede that it's a 'step', and a positive experience in High School can't help but be a "good thing"...
Great article. Young people will see what they are taught to see. It sounds like in this high school, not only are they taught to be accepting of the differences, but they are finding the similarities in each other
It's easy to support multiculturalism in a country such as the United States, France, or any country with a White majority where there is a rule of law, established social-justice systems, and an inventive spirit which has allowed Europeans to thrive the world over.
It's much harder to support multiculturalism in a country like South Africa which has the world's highest rates of rape, murder, robbery, etc. Hell, a study was just released where over 1/4 of the male population admitted to having participated in rape (go figure... tis is Africa). These multicultural proponents... go live White in South Africa behind your razor-wire fence.
The proponents of diversity 'multiculturalism' etc would never go promote this nonsense in a country with a non-White majority.
I can't wait until we wake up and close the borders of the Western World to the third world masses. We'll be much safer and have a lot less crime.
I have always loved the fact that here in America I can travel the world and never leave my metro area, so multiculturalism is a good thing.
However, only white nations/cultures are really ever targeted for it, which to me is hypocritical.
As far as the "Chopping off hands" comment, that's the deeply buried xenophobia bubbling up. Alot of White Americans have the attitude since the Civil Rights Movement that says: "Well, since there isn't any "White" and "Colored" signs over the toilets, well, then by golly, racism is non-existant".
Alot of White Americans have the attitude since the Civil Rights Movement that says: "Well, since there isn't any "White" and "Colored" signs over the toilets, well, then by golly, racism is non-existant".
A lot of White Americans have the attitude that they are sick of being portrayed as oppressors when these so-called 'minorities' have a higher standard of living, living amongst Whites than they ever would amongst their own.
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