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Old 12-07-2006, 11:36 PM
 
597 posts, read 1,787,904 times
Reputation: 332

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbercuddles View Post
How many voters will cast their ballot for a Democrat or Republican only because he or she has always voted that way in the past, knowing very little about each candidate's platform?

....I don't know about you, but that scares me!
Yeah, I know it's frightening to consider, but just imagine if we had the same amount of turnout as the rest of the western world? That's an even scarier proposition. IMO, they can stay out of voting my future away. But, to be fair, I think a lot of people vote on their perception of how the country is doing, not so much on the individual candidates and their position. This is precisely why I think the Dems pulled out a huge one. It's not that people love Democrats, it's because gas was over $3 a gallon, the war in Iraq is a mess, there were several corruption scandals---so what else does a person do besides vote for the opposition party?
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:21 AM
 
Location: Navarre, Florida
327 posts, read 173,953 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by FistFightingHairdresser View Post
Hi again,

Sorry I had to snip some of our post so this would take. I'll see if I can distill this into something short & sweet. In Iraq, I can't see a reason why we should continue to stay there. Short of choosing a side (Shiite, Sunni or Kurd) and lining up against everyone else, there's no way to judo the situation there into something stable. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but that's the way I interpret it. Since our re-stated aim is to bring about a stable, democratic, multi-ethnic Iraq, the one avenue of victory we have -- choosing a side -- is not an option.

So I say the only option left is to get the hell out. Not because it's going to be pleasant to watch the bloodbath that follows, but we have to see this for the ancient, tribal, Arab war that it is. Like it or not it takes a dictator like Saddam Hussein to terrify these people into living peacefully with each other. And we're not in the dictatorship business, at least not yet.

As for the Saudis, they've been the financiers of global terrorism for decades. Let's not pretend we're friends because they have oil. Most of their assets are locked up in the US, that's why we should shut them down. Some might argue that the Saudis would respond by shutting off the oil, which is true..but oil is fungible and someone else will pump it. Eventually the Saudis, starved for cash, would have to turn the pumps back on. It would hurt us bigtime, but they'd have to blink before the US would. And who knows, maybe we'd enjoy a knock-on benefit of actually thinking about energy conservation again.

This is the most powerful lever we have in the fight against terrorism, folks, and we don't even think about using it.

Aaaaaaaand finally, Katrina. All the stories about shooting at helicopters, etc. certainly makes one shake one's head at the state of humanity. But how hard would it have been to line up boats to start ferrying people out? I only have the media as a channel of information, maybe I'm blinkered, but it looked to me like there was a lot of standing around and not much action.
In my opinion, I really think that we need to add troops, special ops, tough love...whatever it takes to get the job done. I'm not a quitter and I don't think we should be, either. Bush admitted that this was going to be a difficult war...he did warn the Americans, unfortunately, we have extremely short memories. Another thing that people forget is that there were over 12 million Iraqis who chose to vote in a democracy; in lieu of the danger he/she would be in. That says a lot.

You stated that Iraq needed a dictator like Saddam to terrify these people to keep them living in peace. No disrespect meant here, but do you have any idea what was going on in Iraq while Hussein was in power? Mass murder of over 100,000 Kurds with poisonous gas...people who were not considered "loyal" would be thrown into a vat of acid, just because. He was responsible for the death of his daughters' husbands...after they were told they would be safe. I don't agree with that comment, whatsoever...but that's what America is all about...freedom of speech and hopefully, respecting others' views.

As for the Saudi's...going to have to get back to you on that...I don't want to make statements that I don't have facts for. I think Iran has a lot to do with the financing of terrorism...and Syria?

The oil blackmail? We really need to have some sort of backup before we decide to cut off the oil supply...can you imagine what chaos...not to mention all of the Hollywood Hotshots who would cry because they wouldn't have a way to get to their massage and nail appointments. The fact that we don't have a backup plan is the fault of Republicans and Democrats...we've all known that this day was coming.

As per Katrina...the water level would not accommodate boats of any substantial size...the water varied in depths...most of the boats were fishing boats that would hold possibly a maximum of about four people. No matter how you look at it, it takes a long time to get thousands of people out. I understand your point and there were a lot of people standing around...on the other hand, if precautions would have been taken to get most of those people out IN THE FIRST PLACE...it would have been much easier to focus on the search and rescue instead of all of the people in the dome and convention center. I realize that a lot of people only know what he/she saw on the news...unfortunately, the true scene was a little different.
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Old 12-08-2006, 04:55 AM
 
Location: Navarre, Florida
327 posts, read 173,953 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdizzle View Post
Yeah, I know it's frightening to consider, but just imagine if we had the same amount of turnout as the rest of the western world? That's an even scarier proposition. IMO, they can stay out of voting my future away. But, to be fair, I think a lot of people vote on their perception of how the country is doing, not so much on the individual candidates and their position. This is precisely why I think the Dems pulled out a huge one. It's not that people love Democrats, it's because gas was over $3 a gallon, the war in Iraq is a mess, there were several corruption scandals---so what else does a person do besides vote for the opposition party?
Patience is a virtue...I realize that Iraq is a huge issue right now, however, I believe that the economy is headed in the right direction, especially after the issues Bush has encountered. Gas prices were up and then down and now up a little bit...if Bush were in total control of everything, then I might have voted differently, but he's not. President Bush is just one part of the equation and at this point in time, even his fellow ultra-conservative Republicans are a little perturbed at him for not doing what they want him to do. Scandals are becoming more and more frequent when politics are involved. Because it happens in both parties, I don't see that as a reason for voting for the opposition...if more people would educate themselves as to who is running for office and what his/her platforms are and try to ignore the liberal-oriented media; it would help.

Why are people such pessimists? So many people forget 9-11 and their vows to fight the terrorists...how quickly we forget. At least at that point in time, we were united and I'll never forget how I felt on that day.

Last edited by Kimbercuddles; 12-08-2006 at 04:56 AM.. Reason: blonde and tired
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:17 AM
 
Location: Haddington, E. Lothian, Scotland
752 posts, read 595,113 times
Reputation: 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbercuddles View Post
In my opinion, I really think that we need to add troops, special ops, tough love...whatever it takes to get the job done. I'm not a quitter and I don't think we should be, either. Bush admitted that this was going to be a difficult war...he did warn the Americans, unfortunately, we have extremely short memories. Another thing that people forget is that there were over 12 million Iraqis who chose to vote in a democracy; in lieu of the danger he/she would be in. That says a lot.

You stated that Iraq needed a dictator like Saddam to terrify these people to keep them living in peace. No disrespect meant here, but do you have any idea what was going on in Iraq while Hussein was in power? Mass murder of over 100,000 Kurds with poisonous gas...people who were not considered "loyal" would be thrown into a vat of acid, just because. He was responsible for the death of his daughters' husbands...after they were told they would be safe. I don't agree with that comment, whatsoever...but that's what America is all about...freedom of speech and hopefully, respecting others' views.
I didn't say it was a good thing that Saddam terrified these people. What it does mean is that Iraq is an artificial estate that could only be held together by an autocrat. Like the Soviet Union when the Communist Party dissolved, recall how quickly the Republics split off. Can you imagine what terror it would take to stitch that former state back together again now? Criminy, they can't even keep ahold of puny Chechnya without ridding it of its locals.

And we also know about the torture, the same kind of medieval nightmare is played out in N. Korea, Iran, Syria, Myanmar, Indonesia, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Uzbekistan, Zimbabwe...so when do we saddle up and invade?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbercuddles View Post
As for the Saudi's...going to have to get back to you on that...I don't want to make statements that I don't have facts for. I think Iran has a lot to do with the financing of terrorism...and Syria?
Sure. But remember we're not allied with Iran & Syria. And Iran's US assets have been frozen since 1979. Syria has none in the US that we know of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbercuddles View Post
The oil blackmail? We really need to have some sort of backup before we decide to cut off the oil supply...can you imagine what chaos...not to mention all of the Hollywood Hotshots who would cry because they wouldn't have a way to get to their massage and nail appointments. The fact that we don't have a backup plan is the fault of Republicans and Democrats...we've all known that this day was coming.
Yup. It would hurt. If we're truly at war, shouldn't sacrifice be part of it? We rationed in WWII, why can't we countenance the thought of giving any part of our comforts away for the sake of security? In WWII we postponed the good-times shopping spree until after the war. Today we just can't wait for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbercuddles View Post
As per Katrina...the water level would not accommodate boats of any substantial size...the water varied in depths...most of the boats were fishing boats that would hold possibly a maximum of about four people. No matter how you look at it, it takes a long time to get thousands of people out. I understand your point and there were a lot of people standing around...on the other hand, if precautions would have been taken to get most of those people out IN THE FIRST PLACE...it would have been much easier to focus on the search and rescue instead of all of the people in the dome and convention center. I realize that a lot of people only know what he/she saw on the news...unfortunately, the true scene was a little different.
Won't argue with you.
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,017 posts, read 16,708,686 times
Reputation: 2091
We didnt just go into Iraq, we tried to get that man to work with us, but he didnt to want play nice . We should always negotiate first , but if they are not willing to play nice, well then...............
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Cottage Grove OR
181 posts, read 489,146 times
Reputation: 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbercuddles View Post

You stated that Iraq needed a dictator like Saddam to terrify these people to keep them living in peace. No disrespect meant here, but do you have any idea what was going on in Iraq while Hussein was in power? Mass murder of over 100,000 Kurds with poisonous gas...people who were not considered "loyal" would be thrown into a vat of acid, just because. He was responsible for the death of his daughters' husbands...after they were told they would be safe. I don't agree with that comment, whatsoever...but that's what America is all about...freedom of speech and hopefully, respecting others' views.
Just dont forget that he was OUR BUDDY during the time he was doing these things... that the CIA helped him gain power in the first place and that alot of countries with similar regimes are our allies today. The war in Ira had nothing to do with:

9/11. There has never been any credible evidence that Ira was in any way involved in the terrorist attacks on that day. If we wanted to invade a country that helped, we should have invaded Pakistan- heck we might even have Osama Bin Ladin by now.

WMD

regional stabilization... or if it did it is an utter failure on that count.

What Iraq has to do with is a group (of now discredited) policy makers who believed that they could control the middle east... the same way that they believed that we could control SE Asia back in the days of Vietnam (not surprisingly, most of these people Rumsfeld, Bremmer, Cheney got their start in Policy at the end of the Vietnam war), and a long held family grudge in the Bush family. It was sold to us on half-truths, lies and d*** lies, and it will cost us 1 trillion dollars.

Now I am not an advocate of speedy withdrawl, as Colin Powell reportedly told young Bush "you break it, you bought it". We do have a legal and moral obligation to rebuild the nation that we have taken control of- however I do believe that the people who sold us this bill of goods should be held responsible and removed from office. I also believe that the contractors who are currently wasting so much of that money we are borrowing from our children to rebuild Iraq should be replaced, that the the first priority of the rebuilding effort is to make sure that every employable Iraqi is working FT, as opposed to spending the money to send Ameicans over there to work.

And as to oting information. Here in Oregon we get sent a "voters guide" which has position papers on all candidates for public office, abstracts of referendums and pro and con statements about the referendums issues. Doesnt every state have something like that?
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:39 AM
 
Location: N.H.
1,022 posts, read 3,150,518 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett View Post
Here in Oregon we get sent a "voters guide" which has position papers on all candidates for public office, abstracts of referendums and pro and con statements about the referendums issues. Doesnt every state have something like that?
Unfortunetly NO. I get most of my info online and by looking up their Voting records. But most ppl don't know how to do this. Most don't realize the House and Senate both list the voting records of all serving.
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Old 12-10-2006, 12:31 AM
 
Location: Navarre, Florida
327 posts, read 173,953 times
Reputation: 86
It happens in Minnesota...but when I was in Louisiana...nothing...didn't receive any information at all. I actually had a very difficult time finding out about our candidates. I eventually found a website that had voting records (as nhyrnut mentioned) which helped me immensely.

Off the track, but did you hear that Louisiana voted in the Jefferson dude after finding $90,000 in his freezer wrapped in foil? I am so glad to be away from there!!

Last edited by Kimbercuddles; 12-10-2006 at 12:32 AM.. Reason: blonde, blonde, blonde
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Old 12-10-2006, 01:20 AM
 
112 posts, read 51,276 times
Reputation: 46
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett View Post
Just dont forget that he was OUR BUDDY during the time he was doing these things... that the CIA helped him gain power in the first place and that alot of countries with similar regimes are our allies today. The war in Ira had nothing to do with:

9/11. There has never been any credible evidence that Ira was in any way involved in the terrorist attacks on that day. If we wanted to invade a country that helped, we should have invaded Pakistan- heck we might even have Osama Bin Ladin by now.

WMD

regional stabilization... or if it did it is an utter failure on that count.

What Iraq has to do with is a group (of now discredited) policy makers who believed that they could control the middle east... the same way that they believed that we could control SE Asia back in the days of Vietnam (not surprisingly, most of these people Rumsfeld, Bremmer, Cheney got their start in Policy at the end of the Vietnam war), and a long held family grudge in the Bush family. It was sold to us on half-truths, lies and d*** lies, and it will cost us 1 trillion dollars.

Now I am not an advocate of speedy withdrawl, as Colin Powell reportedly told young Bush "you break it, you bought it". We do have a legal and moral obligation to rebuild the nation that we have taken control of- however I do believe that the people who sold us this bill of goods should be held responsible and removed from office. I also believe that the contractors who are currently wasting so much of that money we are borrowing from our children to rebuild Iraq should be replaced, that the the first priority of the rebuilding effort is to make sure that every employable Iraqi is working FT, as opposed to spending the money to send Ameicans over there to work.

And as to oting information. Here in Oregon we get sent a "voters guide" which has position papers on all candidates for public office, abstracts of referendums and pro and con statements about the referendums issues. Doesnt every state have something like that?
Things are so easily dismissed. How many UN resolutions later? Everybody looked at the same proof that President Bush had. You can continue to argue this Iraq thing till the cows come home but the reality of it all is America voted for going in. It wasn't the President, Rumsfeld or Cheney that convinced so many. You guys act like we voted in these most intelligent human beings that have been able to fool all these none educated dummies to vote. As far as those WMD's, I have used this analogy before. If the police decided to warn dealers before a drug bust how many successful drug bust would we have?
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Old 12-10-2006, 01:40 AM
 
Location: Navarre, Florida
327 posts, read 173,953 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecuban View Post
Things are so easily dismissed. How many UN resolutions later? Everybody looked at the same proof that President Bush had. You can continue to argue this Iraq thing till the cows come home but the reality of it all is America voted for going in. It wasn't the President, Rumsfeld or Cheney that convinced so many. You guys act like we voted in these most intelligent human beings that have been able to fool all these none educated dummies to vote. As far as those WMD's, I have used this analogy before. If the police decided to warn dealers before a drug bust how many successful drug bust would we have?
Excellent analogy...and so true. I think if Bush would have had his way, he would have just invaded with no warning...which might have been better in all aspects. Don't forget the United Nations and "food for oil"...no wonder a lot of countries weren't behind us...they were going to lose out on benefits!
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