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Old 04-03-2015, 01:13 AM
 
Location: South Texas
4,248 posts, read 4,145,777 times
Reputation: 6051

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalbound12 View Post
You keep trotting out the same tired leftist rhetoric. When will you statists learn that freedom =/= segregation via governmental force? The problem with Jim Crow and forced segregation wasn't that people lived "segregated" it was that they were forced to do so and did not have freedom of association or true property rights.

Forced integration is no more moral than forced segregation despite the noble purpose behind it. The moral thing to do would have been to get the government out of our personal lives and remove barriers to freedom, not simply switch which hand the government holds the whip in. The same principle that allows for forced "tolerance" also allowed for Jim Crow and that is state force.

Statists believe that the perceived nobility of their ends justifies any means. Thus, they will never accept the truths that I emphasized in bold.
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Old 04-03-2015, 03:28 AM
bUU
 
Location: Florida
12,077 posts, read 10,679,221 times
Reputation: 8798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
You don't get to say which rules should apply.
Neither do you, nor does your church, nor your God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
God set out his wishes in the Bible
That's your personal opinion and one that is not supported by the objective evidence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
If you are a Christian, that's it. Christians who truly believe, believe nothing else.
That's essentially saying, "Christians don't believe in peaceful coexistence with others in society." Is it desperation inherent in watching the waning relevance of the kind of "believe nothing else" blindness you referred to that drives you to advocate the most evil behaviors Christianity can embody?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
Obviously he is not to be taken seriously.
But we have to take people seriously when their actions are driven by such corrupt assumptions that may drive them to take actions against other people in society. Such comments are an attack on civilization itself and leaving them stand unchallenged may dupe weak-minded sycophants to climbing on board that regressive train.
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:00 AM
 
5,661 posts, read 3,510,458 times
Reputation: 5155
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalbound12 View Post

Calling the Indiana law "draconian" is hysterical nonsense. No one is "isolating and separating" anyone, there is no force involved here. A man has the ability to refuse service to anyone on his property because that property is HIS, not yours or anyone else. It would be wrong and immoral for the government to say, "you have to refuse service to gays." That is different because that is the government using force to tell a person what to do on their property. It is no less immoral when the government tells you that you cannot refuse service to someone on your own property.
From what I understand of this new law, I do not have a problem with it.

As you have explained the law in your post I referenced.
That is also what I was thinking.

To many hot heads what about my cause jumping around all out of sorts on this law.

Unless I am misunderstanding or misinterpreting this law.
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Old 04-03-2015, 05:54 AM
 
Location: Sonoran Desert
39,023 posts, read 51,075,331 times
Reputation: 28216
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCalbound12 View Post
All of this is essentially meaningless because nothing you've said here is right. America was founded by a bunch of religious people who wanted to establish religious freedom and protect their right to practice their faith without interference from the state. I highly doubt many of the Founders would have a problem with the law in Indiana. I also don't imagine that early Americans were big on the "circle of equality" considering slavery was a norm, blacks were not considered people, they had no problem massacring American Indians and taking their land, and while they may have said "All men are created equal" I have a feeling Thomas Jefferson had a different concept of that idea than you do.

Secondly the idea of "liberty" that you are espousing is pretty much meaningless. Without freedom of association, vigorous property rights, religious freedom, and freedom of speech what "liberty" could you possibly be talking about? If I don't even have the right to remove someone from my property and refuse to engage in commerce with them how could I possibly have any meaningful liberty? If I don't truly own myself, if I cannot practice my religion how I see fit, conduct my affairs how I see fit on my property, so long as I do not violate someone else's rights then what is "liberty" but a buzzword to make the masses feel better about their slavery to the state.

Calling the Indiana law "draconian" is hysterical nonsense. No one is "isolating and separating" anyone, there is no force involved here. A man has the ability to refuse service to anyone on his property because that property is HIS, not yours or anyone else. It would be wrong and immoral for the government to say, "you have to refuse service to gays." That is different because that is the government using force to tell a person what to do on their property. It is no less immoral when the government tells you that you cannot refuse service to someone on your own property.
There is nothing immoral about people in a town telling someone who wants to sell their goods there "OK, but you have to follow these rules." For that matter there is nothing unconstitutional about it either. Courts have upheld the regulation of business since independence.
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Old 04-03-2015, 06:23 AM
 
11,412 posts, read 7,767,343 times
Reputation: 21922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slowpoke_TX View Post
These people are (mis)using Christianity as a smokescreen for their hatred, but it is not the source.



It's not, and anyone who claims otherwise is lying.



They pervert Christianity, they do not represent it truthfully & accurately.



Just as God loves the sinner but hates the sin, so should we.



While the Bible does state that homosexuality is a sin (in both the Old and New Testaments), it does NOT condone hatred. Anyone who says that Jesus favored hatred is a liar. He preached forgiveness toward those who repent of their sin, turning from it and turning to Him.
I agree with you in all of this with the exception of the statement that homosexuality is stated as as sin in the New Testament. It's not. Just the Old Testament. And like you, I believe Jesus taught forgiveness for all. I'm always baffled by people who claim to be Christians and disregard this most basic of His teachings.
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Old 04-03-2015, 06:33 AM
mm4
 
5,711 posts, read 3,967,294 times
Reputation: 1941
_"INDIANA PIZZERIA SAID IT WOULD SERVE GAYS, BUT REPORTERS BURIED THE QUOTE"_
"Controversial reporting in article that broke story about 'no gay weddings' pizzeria"
» Indiana Pizzeria Said It Would Serve Gays, But Reporters Buried The Quote Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!


And Muslims?
» HIDDEN CAM: Gay Wedding Cakes at Muslim Bakeries? Alex Jones' Infowars: There's a war on for your mind!
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Old 04-03-2015, 06:39 AM
bUU
 
Location: Florida
12,077 posts, read 10,679,221 times
Reputation: 8798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa View Post
There is nothing immoral about people in a town telling someone who wants to sell their goods there "OK, but you have to follow these rules." For that matter there is nothing unconstitutional about it either. Courts have upheld the regulation of business since independence.
Yet right wingers have to find some way to rationalize the hatred they want to engage in. That's all that's actually going on here.
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Old 04-03-2015, 06:48 AM
 
11,186 posts, read 6,487,434 times
Reputation: 4621
Quote:
Originally Posted by bUU View Post
Yet right wingers have to find some way to rationalize the hatred they want to engage in. That's all that's actually going on here.
Yep, in a list of 'haters,' people who'd rather not serve same sex marriages are right at the top.
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Old 04-03-2015, 06:53 AM
 
19,573 posts, read 8,489,347 times
Reputation: 10096
Quote:
Originally Posted by UNC4Me View Post
Some so-called Christians don't hate the gay person because he or she is a Christian, but because they are. They justify their vile behavior by hiding behind their religion. Do you really want Christianity to be a hate filled and exclusionary religion? That's the version some posters are clearing cheering for. Thankfully, most (non-homophobic) Christians believe in the love for one's fellow man as taught by Jesus. (And NO, Jesus never talked about homosexuality in any of the Gospels so don't tell me he was all for this hatred.)
You are projecting. Just because that is the attitude of these homo-fascist bullies towards Christians, you somehow believe that the attitude is reciprocated. It isn't.

The owner of this business made clear that homosexuals are welcome in his store and that he is happy to serve them. Nationwide, this is the attitude of Christian merchants everywhere. In fact, the issue here is not an unwillingness to serve people based on their sexual orientation, it is the unwillingness of Christians to help commemorate a ceremony that they regard as an offense to their religious beliefs.

The vile behavior is from the homo-fascists, who have issued death threats and engaged in a conspiracy to ruin these people's business and their lives. The vile behavior is from the leftist media sorts, who inspire this same sort of hatred from people who follow them, especially on cable television. The vile behavior is from leftist business leaders, such as Apple CEO Tim Cook, who will participate in an orchestrated campaign to destroy some small town pizza shop owner, while continuing to make millions from regimes like Saudi Arabia who kill homosexuals for their sexual orientation.

You need to get your perspective right and your priorities straight. You have clearly been misled.

Last edited by Spartacus713; 04-03-2015 at 07:22 AM..
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Old 04-03-2015, 07:27 AM
 
11,412 posts, read 7,767,343 times
Reputation: 21922
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartacus713 View Post
You are projecting. Just because that is the attitude of many on these homo-fascist bullies towards Christians, you somehow believe that the attitude is reciprocated. It isn't.

The owner of this business made clear that Homosexuals are welcome in his store and he is happy to serve them. Nationwide, this is the attitude of Christian merchants everywhere. In fact, the issue here is not an unwillingness to serve people based on their sexual orientation, it is the unwillingness of Christians to help commemorate a ceremony that they regard as an offense to their religious beliefs.

The vile behavior is from the homo-fascists who have issued death threats and engaged in a conspiracy to ruin these people's business and their lives. The vile behavior is from the leftist media sorts who inspire this same sort of hatred from people who follow them. The vile behavior is from leftist business leaders like Apple CEO Tim Cook who will participate in an orchestrated campaign to destroy some small town pizza shop owner, while continuing to make millions from regimes like Saudi Arabia who kill homosexuals for their sexual orientation.

You need to get your perspective right and your priorities straight. You have clearly been misled.
Not so much. There are indeed "Christians" (and I use that term very loosely) who believe quite the opposite. Some of them were posting in this thread yesterday, but due to the vileness and hatred in their posts, the mods deleted them. If you truly believe that all "Christians" welcome homosexuals in all areas of public life, you are the one who is projecting. IF those so called "Christians" actually followed the teachings of Christ, they would behave in a far different manner.

I do not disagree that the rhetoric on the other side can be ugly as well. I don't condone that either. But, to accuse one side while calling the other fully inclusive and loving is laughable.

And on a final note, here's my perspective: If you are a specifically religious organization (church, synagogue, mosque etc.) and your religious beliefs preclude allowing same sex couple to marry or participate in anyway in your house of worship, I support your right to do so. But, if you're a bakery who has applied for and received a business license from your municipality and opened your doors to the public in order to provide them with tasty baked goods, you should provide those baked goods without regard to your personal religious beliefs. If your religious beliefs about same sex marriage compel you to refuse a wedding cake to a same sex couple, then don't sell wedding cakes at all. Problem solved.
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