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I am a white guy, although I'm various types of "white". I wish I wasn't at times because it's often used to make me seem less objective, when I truly try to be as objective as I can be. I truly would rather give up what I have to make things right than do what I know is wrong even though I benefit from it. I got my degree in a field dominated by state jobs, and after becoming a voluntaryist I stopped applying for government jobs and was working for $10/hr for the next couple years. Luckily I found something in the private sector recently that pays well enough...but I'd rather do what I think is right than what benefits me.
I would never use legality as an argument, so don't worry about that.
My post kind of covered what you said, but I'll say it differently. The problem is that you can't go back in time and see how the Native Americans acquired that land. You have to go to the beginning of mankind. Looking at other groups throughout history, we can be pretty sure that there were battles and conquests between native tribes, there was theft...the chances that Native American tribes rightfully acquired their territories in a peaceful, non-violent way through trade or negotiation are almost 0.
So what it really comes down to is...we can't know who the rightful owner is, so unfortunately the most fair thing to do is judge people alive today based on their own actions and move on. It's tough because it'll just be a cycle. Current landowners will be upset because a) they're punished for things they never did, and b) there's no proof that Native Americans rightfully own it...but Native Americans will be upset because it's possible that they rightfully owned it and it was taken away. What do you do when nobody knows who the rightful owner is?
Ok, I appreciate that you're trying to be objective. Personally I sometimes wonder is there IS any such thing as 'objective'... but it's a noble goal just the same. Beats the HELL outta what most people do.
And in that spirit, I would like to point out that you're using two different standards. And you're using in a rather self-serving manner.
First of all, think about the concept of 'ownership' and what it means. If you say that you own your land... what you're really saying is that all us white people (i.e. the government) agree that you own your land because a piece of paper says so... and we will join to together collectively (as a government!) to enforce said ownership. I mean, you're saying that it's just too HARD to figger out who rightfully owns your land... so might as well just let YOU keep it (even though you know damn well it was stolen)... because it's convenient.
Convenient for who? You?
But when it comes to taxes... you're not letting that same collective agreement of white people define ownership. No! When it comes to taxes you bygod claim that your ownership rights are sacrosanct and iron-clad logic must be applied so that any cent that has ever possibly been 'yours', is 'yours' in perpetuity so sayeth Tha Lord! No room for 'convenience' here... just stone cold logic and morality.
Morality for who? You?
Do you see what I'm getting at? If a man says that his right to own his land is defined by convenience and government... well then I'd reckon he ought to be ok with paying taxes. But if a man says that everything that is his is his taxes be damned and government has no bearing on it... well then I'd expect that he would give his land to its rightful owners... consequences be damned.
Am I making sense? I'm slightly drunk, so I can't be sure.
My point is that you can't have it both ways (well you can- people do it all the time- but not while being logically consistent). You can define ownership via convenience and force (as you're doing with your land). You can define ownership by stone-cold logic and gawd-given rights (as you're doing with your taxes). But if you try and do both at the same time... well then you look to me like a self-serving *******.
Anyhow, thanks for the fun debate. I hope it continues.
So you're saying that ownership is defined by force?
How is that different from defining ownership via government force? You must be perfectly happy paying your taxes!
My ancestors were under armed and got their asses kicked by bullies that wanted what they had... Just like the government wants to force the people to be.
My ancestors were under armed and got their asses kicked by bullies that wanted what they had... Just like the government wants to force the people to be.
Yeah, sure. Says the guy who celebrates the same United States that slaughtered Native Americans wholesale.
You'll pay your taxes or you'll be put in a cage. Or if you're real lucky you'll be marginalized and work cash-only odd jobs barely making a living off the grid.
Either way, if you want to be a part of society you WILL play by the rules. And the rules are that force defines ownership. There is NO other definition that matters.
You will pay your taxes. Or you will be put in a cage. Period.
That's because force defines 'ownership'. Sorry kids, but that's how we grown-ups roll.
Or die!
Ever hear, "Give me Liberty, or give me Death"
I have not paid a dime in income taxes in 42 years. Been audited 3 times. Property tax... That is a whole new topic.
Barter and cash, works for me. The only loan I have ever had, was a mortgage on farm property.
I have an oil well on that property which makes the property a business and spend it all on the property, new equipment, livestock, food and toys, so the government doesn't get a dime. Just keep the receipts for the business write off.....
The paper trails are very short around my house. Cash is king.
Or die!
Ever hear, "Give me Liberty, or give me Death"
I have not paid a dime in income taxes in 42 years. Been audited 3 times. Property tax... That is a whole new topic.
Barter and cash, works for me. The only loan I have ever had, was a mortgage on farm property.
I have an oil well on that property which makes the property a business and spend it all on the property, new equipment, livestock, food and toys, so the government doesn't get a dime. Just keep the receipts for the business write off.....
The paper trails are very short around my house. Cash is king.
You're an internet-forum bulwark of FREEDOM my man!
You're welcome for the Social Security payments and farm subsidies
Seriously, I know some folks caught up in the posse comitatus movement back in the 80's.
The lucky ones still hang around working cattle and the like. Others are gone and have been for years. A few went to prison.
Good luck with all that
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Says the guy who celebrates the same United States that slaughtered Native Americans wholesale.
