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Old 11-11-2006, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Port St. Lucie and Okeechobee, FL
1,305 posts, read 4,931,720 times
Reputation: 1069

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbercuddles View Post
...Supposedly, he did a major overhaul of the welfare system. He basically transferred the power to the states to run it, although the money is still coming from Washington. The new rules were that the welfare recipients be taken off of the rolls in five years and find a job within two....that SOUNDS pretty good.

The work requirement is costing taxpayers a LOT of money. To employ these people, the states create jobs and pay for health care and day care.
I'm not aware of any states "creating jobs"; the last time that was done was during the Great Depression with the WPA and CCC.

Let's see, you want people off welfare, but you don't want to spend any money for job training, health care or day care. Where are they supposed to work? How can they earn enough to pay for shelter, food, health care and day care at a minimum wage law, when conservatives like you refuse to raise the minimum wage to a liveable wage?

I suppose ther're just supposed to die -- that would solve the problem. Ever see the movie, "Solient Green"? That would be just the ticket for conservatives...
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Old 11-11-2006, 11:14 AM
 
Location: N.H.
1,022 posts, read 3,147,600 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by pslOldTimer View Post
I'm not aware of any states "creating jobs"; the last time that was done was during the Great Depression with the WPA and CCC.

Let's see, you want people off welfare, but you don't want to spend any money for job training, health care or day care. Where are they supposed to work? How can they earn enough to pay for shelter, food, health care and day care at a minimum wage law, when conservatives like you refuse to raise the minimum wage to a liveable wage?

I suppose ther're just supposed to die -- that would solve the problem. Ever see the movie, "Solient Green"? That would be just the ticket for conservatives...
if its raise that means its no longer livable you don't think prices will go up noone is going to loose profit. and no, only help them for like 2 years we all need help every now and then but 5 years the lazy bumms can get a job. 2 years max. ya help out but not pay full daycare or job training. help get them loans for school or some grants like the rest of us did. but to have a free ride because you got stupid in life so now we have to pay for it NOT!!! get a job!!! we help we don't support. you want support move back home.
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Old 11-11-2006, 12:11 PM
 
Location: Navarre, Florida
327 posts, read 173,477 times
Reputation: 86
OldTimer: No, no, no...first of all, I want you to know that I do agree with helping some of these people...I realize there are situations that make it extremely difficult. But there are so many people who take advantage of these programs. I've seen it. Give a man a fish and you have fed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. That's what student loans are for. On the other hand, if I can do it, most people can. I'm still paying for student loans - I graduated in 1987 - I defaulted (irresponsible and family situations) and now am almost completely done paying them off. I feel good because no one gave me a handout...where there is a will, there is a way. Don't you agree that if the government is giving you almost the same amount of money as a job, wouldn't it make it a lot easier just to take the money and not work? I was able to do it by myself...no help besides the loans...why can't most people do the same thing? I'm just asking??????

Last edited by Kimbercuddles; 11-11-2006 at 12:17 PM.. Reason: i'm a dork
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Old 11-11-2006, 12:47 PM
 
9,716 posts, read 12,940,289 times
Reputation: 3315
What do "conservatives" think about the situation I posted above?: The welfare mother who went back to work but her kids became delinquents while she was working. Where is the cost savings in that?

She had one son (her oldest) who was highly motivated to work and make money. From the calls she got at work, it looked like he was going to turn Burglary/Theft into a full-time profession. Her youngest son was being recruited by a gang, but he didn't want to join. Someone actually tried to stab him on his way home from school one day but, fortunately, the knife only went through his backpack and he was unhurt. The youngest was a lucky kid because he ended up getting involved in a program the local police set up to mentor kids after school. (These programs are great! But they need to be funded!)

I felt sorry for her in a lot of ways because she fretted a lot about her kids getting into trouble while they were unsupervised. She had grown up the hard way (getting pregnant the first time at 14) and she wanted something better for her kids.

We save money when she doesn't collect Welfare. We spend money when her oldest child ends up in prison. Which costs more?
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:05 PM
 
Location: Navarre, Florida
327 posts, read 173,477 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
What do "conservatives" think about the situation I posted above?: The welfare mother who went back to work but her kids became delinquents while she was working. Where is the cost savings in that?

She had one son (her oldest) who was highly motivated to work and make money. From the calls she got at work, it looked like he was going to turn Burglary/Theft into a full-time profession. Her youngest son was being recruited by a gang, but he didn't want to join. Someone actually tried to stab him on his way home from school one day but, fortunately, the knife only went through his backpack and he was unhurt. The youngest was a lucky kid because he ended up getting involved in a program the local police set up to mentor kids after school. (These programs are great! But they need to be funded!)

I felt sorry for her in a lot of ways because she fretted a lot about her kids getting into trouble while they were unsupervised. She had grown up the hard way (getting pregnant the first time at 14) and she wanted something better for her kids.

We save money when she doesn't collect Welfare. We spend money when her oldest child ends up in prison. Which costs more?
Excellent point, UB50. I realize a lot of people will not agree with me on this one, so here goes.

First of all, I'm concerned about ANYONE becoming pregnant at 14...at that age a girl is hardly old enough to decide which outfit she wants to wear to school. There are many issues in this situation. Do I think she should have been abstinent? Of course, that would have solved most of this. But she wasn't and we all make mistakes. Do I think she should have had an abortion? Absolutely not...it wasn't the child's fault that she was irresponsible...time to be accountable for one's actions. Do I think she should have given the child up for adoption? It might have made things a lot easier for her, but I respect her for keeping the child. I'm guessing there wasn't a father involved? That's another problem...it's easy for a guy to skip out...they need to be accountable, also. Obviously, whenever there aren't two parents involved in raising children, the odds are much greater that the kids will get into more trouble. Even when there ARE two parents, it's difficult these days. I am more than willing to pay for after-school programs and ANYTHING that will help keep these children out of trouble...I don't know what the answer is...you brought up a great point.

I do think that it's easier for one to keep depending on government to take care of him/her once it's started.
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Fort Mill, SC
269 posts, read 944,508 times
Reputation: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by nhyrnut View Post
not as much as the dems hence the donkey born a half breed can't reproduce for haritage and has not good history.
That would be a mule that is cross-bred. A Mare (horse) and a Jack (donkey) mate to produce a mule. Donkey's are purebred and native and perfectly capable of reproducing. Af for the rest of your sentence...I haven't a clue what it meant.
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:15 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
12,775 posts, read 7,378,463 times
Reputation: 13043
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimbercuddles View Post
OldTimer: No, no, no...first of all, I want you to know that I do agree with helping some of these people...I realize there are situations that make it extremely difficult. But there are so many people who take advantage of these programs. I've seen it. Give a man a fish and you have fed him for a day; teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime. That's what student loans are for. On the other hand, if I can do it, most people can. I'm still paying for student loans - I graduated in 1987 - I defaulted (irresponsible and family situations) and now am almost completely done paying them off. I feel good because no one gave me a handout...where there is a will, there is a way. Don't you agree that if the government is giving you almost the same amount of money as a job, wouldn't it make it a lot easier just to take the money and not work? I was able to do it by myself...no help besides the loans...why can't most people do the same thing? I'm just asking??????
I can try to answer your question; maybe people will agree, maybe not.

First of all, the majority of people on welfare grew up in that system. Their mothers and grandmothers were on welfare. So to them, it's kind of a 'culture'. It is really not their fault; there are no role models for these children. They go to school but don't really get an education since the districts they go to are poor with not enough teachers, outdated books, violence in the halls. I'm not saying that SOME people don't make their way out of that trap and become successful, some do. But the majority are born into mental depression and if there is no one pushing these kids to succeed and excel then most will not.

The 'cycle of poverty' can be broken if we as Americans have the will to do it, and commit to all that that implies.

It's sort of like the kids now in Iraq or other war-torn countries. They grow up with the violence, it's something they think is normal.

Now, if someone grew up in a poor household but their parents encouraged them to look beyond the tenements and violence and realize there is a better world and explained how to achieve that better world for themselves, then that kid has a chance.

We need much more funding for schools to make them safe and able to actually teach; social workers to find kids at risk and help them with what they need. We need jobs that pay more than minimum wage, something that people can actually LIVE on. More playgrounds, more cops walking the beat, no illegal aliens taking jobs that teenagers would normally take after school or during the summer, heck, they're taking jobs that people on welfare could do, but businesses won't hire Americans when they can pay illegals less, so even those jobs are drying up.

Someone mentioned people on welfare talking on cell phones in their cars, etc. Most likely they are the drug dealers (I doubt you actually went up to them and ASKED if they were on welfare, so how would you know, by where they live?). Close the borders where the drugs and illegals are getting in for gosh sakes! Anyway, that's off topic. Sorry...

The thing is, not everyone can go to college for whatever reason.

I was on welfare many years ago (about 30) and it was horrible! I didn't even have a dime to put into the phone booth to call for a job! Yep, I cheated for a while, until I was making enough to support myself and two children. Then I called welfare and told them I had a job and didn't need assistance anymore. It was the only way I could get out of the welfare trap, which is what it was then. Now I understand it is different, people have to get a job within a certain amount of time. That's a good thing, but they should also get assistance with childcare (expensive). Maybe until they reach a certain income level.

I guess the bottom line is education, safe streets and homes, teachers empowered to actually teach, and higher expectations!
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:26 PM
 
9,716 posts, read 12,940,289 times
Reputation: 3315
Kimbercuddles,

Actually there was more to that woman's story that I left out...

She didn't get along with her parents growing up so she wanted to leave home. She got pregnant the first time at 14, then she had another child shortly after that one. Her "husband" (or boyfriend) at that time was a Mexican national. When he got mad at her one day, he took the kids to Mexico. She was so naive at the time, she thought Mexico was some little tiny place and she could just go report it to the police and they would get her kids back.

So... She went to the police and she told them that this man had taken her kids to Mexico. They asked her "What city in Mexico?" She said, "City?" because in her head, Mexico was a city and it was really small, like they show on TV. (This is how young, naive and stupid she was. To this day, she has never travelled more than 20 miles from home.) Anyway, that was what happened to her first two kids. She never got them back and never saw them again. The next three kids came later in life, when she was married.

The other woman, the one who left her 4 & 6 year old at home alone -- well, she got pregnant by her FATHER when she was only 14. She didn't get an abortion and her father went to prison. My boss and I were always appalled that she would leave two small children at home alone, but what are you going to do? Call Child Protective Services? Here is a mother trying to get off Welfare. What's worse was that this mother wouldn't send her 6-year old to school because there would be no one home to watch the 4-year old! (To top it off, she got pregnant again the last year I worked at this company. She was married by then, but still...)

I think a lot of the reasons women end up on welfare are more complex than we imagine. The less education they have, the easier it appears that it can happen. The fact they have less education is really a failure of our society.
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Navarre, Florida
327 posts, read 173,477 times
Reputation: 86
Fox Terrier...excellent post. I commend you for bringing up things that a lot of people lose sight of. I'm guilty of that, myself. Thanks.
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Old 11-11-2006, 01:38 PM
 
Location: Navarre, Florida
327 posts, read 173,477 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by UB50 View Post
Kimbercuddles,

Actually there was more to that woman's story that I left out...

She didn't get along with her parents growing up so she wanted to leave home. She got pregnant the first time at 14, then she had another child shortly after that one. Her "husband" (or boyfriend) at that time was a Mexican national. When he got mad at her one day, he took the kids to Mexico. She was so naive at the time, she thought Mexico was some little tiny place and she could just go report it to the police and they would get her kids back.

So... She went to the police and she told them that this man had taken her kids to Mexico. They asked her "What city in Mexico?" She said, "City?" because in her head, Mexico was a city and it was really small, like they show on TV. (This is how young, naive and stupid she was. To this day, she has never travelled more than 20 miles from home.) Anyway, that was what happened to her first two kids. She never got them back and never saw them again. The next three kids came later in life, when she was married.

The other woman, the one who left her 4 & 6 year old at home alone -- well, she got pregnant by her FATHER when she was only 14. She didn't get an abortion and her father went to prison. My boss and I were always appalled that she would leave two small children at home alone, but what are you going to do? Call Child Protective Services? Here is a mother trying to get off Welfare. What's worse was that this mother wouldn't send her 6-year old to school because there would be no one home to watch the 4-year old! (To top it off, she got pregnant again the last year I worked at this company. She was married by then, but still...)

I think a lot of the reasons women end up on welfare are more complex than we imagine. The less education they have, the easier it appears that it can happen. The fact they have less education is really a failure of our society.
UB50 - after reading your post, I am so thankful for my parents and the way I was raised. I guess that's part of the reason I believe so strongly in morals and values...it seemed to pay off in the long run. It just goes to show that no matter how horrible things are, there is ALWAYS someone who is worse off than you are.

The first welfare lady's story was very sad. The second one makes me furious...the thought of a girl getting pregnant by her father literally makes me ill. Why didn't she give that child up for adoption?!? Anyway, I appreciate the info...that's why I love this forum...I learn so much.
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