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Old 05-02-2015, 04:54 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 13,576,329 times
Reputation: 7921

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It wasn't all that long ago that few public sector (government) workers were unionized. FDR famously said that "All government employees should recognize that collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into public service." Since around 1970 however, public sector unions in the US have mushroomed. Approx. 1 of 2 union workers today is a government worker.

With private sector unions, contracts are negotiated with corps. on one side of the table, and unions on the other side. There is a natural give and take. With public sector unions, the union are on one side of the table, and the politicos they helped elect are on the other side. It amounts to a kickback scheme. Instead of give and take, we get take and take.

There is some evidence that this played a role in the debacle we currently call Baltimore, Maryland.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...and-runs-deep/

Quote:
Only weeks before Freddie Gray’s death while in custody of Baltimore police, cops from around the state filled a committee hearing room in Annapolis to aggressively lobby against a wave of reform bills aimed at increasing police accountability in Maryland. The police won: every bill to make it easier to investigate and prosecute police misconduct went down to defeat,
This has become generally true with public sector workers. Accountability has been laid to waste. Public sector union contracts are written such that it becomes close to impossible to fire a bad apple. A state agency head in my state (WA) said that it was a "hellacious process" to fire an employee.

Liberals love big government. OK fine, we're going to disagree on that, but if you love big government, why would you support a mechanism that inevitably means poor results from government agencies and programs? If you can't have accountability, you're inevitably going to have poor results. I am far from anti-union. I'm a union member and even hold a low-level elected position in my (private sector) union. But FDR was right.
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Old 05-02-2015, 05:56 PM
 
2,391 posts, read 1,939,295 times
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I manage government union workers and we fire employees when we need to. The only time we do not is when the manager or supervisor does not do their job adequately. We terminate people for conduct they would never be terminated for in private sector jobs all the time.

The contract is written for managers and clearly spells out the rules.
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Old 05-02-2015, 06:06 PM
 
47,316 posts, read 24,612,722 times
Reputation: 14468
Now it's all the union's fault.

Next up, blaming Planned Parenthood.
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Old 05-02-2015, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 13,576,329 times
Reputation: 7921
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1944 View Post
I manage government union workers and we fire employees when we need to. The only time we do not is when the manager or supervisor does not do their job adequately. We terminate people for conduct they would never be terminated for in private sector jobs all the time.

The contract is written for managers and clearly spells out the rules.
Perhaps you do, but this is not the norm for public sector unions.

The Rubber Room - The New Yorker

Quote:
The teachers have been in the Rubber Room for an average of about three years, doing the same thing every day—which is pretty much nothing at all. Watched over by two private security guards and two city Department of Education supervisors, they punch a time clock for the same hours that they would have kept at school—typically, eight-fifteen to three-fifteen. Like all teachers, they have the summer off. The city’s contract with their union, the United Federation of Teachers, requires that charges against them be heard by an arbitrator, and until the charges are resolved—the process is often endless—they will continue to draw their salaries and accrue pensions and other benefits.
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Old 05-02-2015, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Inyokern, CA
1,609 posts, read 874,942 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1944 View Post
I manage government union workers and we fire employees when we need to. The only time we do not is when the manager or supervisor does not do their job adequately. We terminate people for conduct they would never be terminated for in private sector jobs all the time.

The contract is written for managers and clearly spells out the rules.
wutitiz explained the blatent "conflict of interest" disaster at the negotiating table when the working segment paid by tax payers $'s negotiates with the political side that has no stake in the outcome.

Public Unions have been disastrious in California, the State in which I live. I have long realized that no one on the tax-payers payroll should be allowed to have a union.
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Old 05-02-2015, 06:29 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 13,576,329 times
Reputation: 7921
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Now it's all the union's fault.

Next up, blaming Planned Parenthood.
You didn't bother to read the link before bloviating (and stuffing words in my mouth) did you?

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...and-runs-deep/

Quote:
Civil rights advocates say they were heavily outgunned — metaphorically — by the police.
Police unions play a significant role in Maryland politics, from campaign endorsements to influence peddling. According to public records, the largest police associations, including the Baltimore Fraternal Order of Police, donated $1,834,680 to state politicians over the last decade
This is not coming from me, your ultraconservative pal who has no say-so due to the pallor of my skin tone, but from groups like the ACLU, the NAACP, the Montgomery County Civil Rights Coalition, and even a guy named "Farajii Muhammad, one of the organizers of the reform effort...."
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Old 05-03-2015, 02:04 AM
 
47,316 posts, read 24,612,722 times
Reputation: 14468
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
You didn't bother to read the link before bloviating (and stuffing words in my mouth) did you?

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...and-runs-deep/



This is not coming from me, your ultraconservative pal who has no say-so due to the pallor of my skin tone, but from groups like the ACLU, the NAACP, the Montgomery County Civil Rights Coalition, and even a guy named "Farajii Muhammad, one of the organizers of the reform effort...."
We're not pals and you're absolutely correct about having no say so.
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:19 AM
 
2,391 posts, read 1,939,295 times
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I do not disagree that public sector unions have helped raise wages for their workers. I disagree that you can not fire them or that when legislatures discuss issues concerning their employment they only protest because they are in a union.

The NY rubber room is not a good example because those teachers have not been proven to have failed to perform. Most have not been brought up on charges they have just been removed from the classroom.

I think even you feel that an employee has the right to challenge the charges against them and the employer should document the charges are true.
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Old 05-03-2015, 05:39 AM
 
33,299 posts, read 14,541,521 times
Reputation: 7578
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom1944 View Post
I manage government union workers and we fire employees when we need to. The only time we do not is when the manager or supervisor does not do their job adequately. We terminate people for conduct they would never be terminated for in private sector jobs all the time.

The contract is written for managers and clearly spells out the rules.
"we fire employees when we need to"

How long does it take?

What processes do you have to use?

NO one said they CAN'T be fired. It is just that it is SELDOM is done due to the process required and the repercussions.

MANY "bad apples" are "promoted out" because it is easier then putting yourself under the gun of pressure to make sure you crossed every T and dotted every I.
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Old 05-03-2015, 05:45 AM
 
2,391 posts, read 1,939,295 times
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How long does it take- it depends on the specific charge. Misconduct is very quick, non-performance requires more documentation and a longer period of time. Most issues with non-performance are corrected once the employee realizes they have a manager that will do the job the manager is tasked to do. You know manage.

Processes- we have a contract and a relationship with HR where we follow the contract and bring issues to HR's attention and work with them.
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