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Old 05-10-2015, 05:21 PM
 
48,516 posts, read 83,943,432 times
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Not me; as the old world was very class driven by birth. Its why my ancestors left Europe. One only has to remember that Europeans fought each other over colonies until they basically destroyed much of the world by WWII.Even after WWII they did not give colonies up until driven out and unable to respond.
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Old 05-10-2015, 05:48 PM
 
2,778 posts, read 1,427,473 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
That was judgment against contemporaries.
^That's a circular argument.

Of course it's a judgment rooted in contemporary lines of thought. My point is that morality isn't absolutely relative, and even if it were, you can't be THAT selective about it. If you excuse colonialism, then you also need to excuse every other crime against humanity as they too are products of beliefs that could change in time.

You can't make moral judgments against Nazis who participated in the Holocaust, Congolese soldiers who rape, or even a network of child molesters that organizes annual trips to Cambodia... all of these people are acting based on the belief systems that they hold. According to you, the fact that they could change in time is enough to make ignoring them a viable option.

Last edited by Spatula City; 05-10-2015 at 05:56 PM..
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:09 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
8,090 posts, read 4,715,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
I would think most people in the present day think slavery was wrong - one of the worst things about our history. I would also think most people in the present day also recognize the outcome of the American Civil War was the end of slavery.

I think everyone thought slavery was "morally wrong", even 150 years ago, but you can always find ways to justify just about anything.

I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm justifying slavery, but there are some pretty decent arguments made in favor of slavery.


First, lets understand that all societies are based on some form of slavery, America, and all other democracies, are a form of slavery. Communism is a form of slavery, serfdom was a form of slavery.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxRSkM8C8z4

As Lysander Spooner wrote... "The pretense that the “abolition of slavery” was either a motive or justification for the war, is a fraud of the same character with that of “maintaining the national honor.” Who, but such usurpers, robbers, and murderers as they, ever established slavery? Or what government, except one resting upon the sword, like the one we now have, was ever capable of maintaining slavery? And why did these men abolish slavery? Not from any love of liberty in general – not as an act of justice to the black man himself, but only “as a war measure,” and because they wanted his assistance, and that of his friends, in carrying on the war they had undertaken for maintaining and intensifying that political, commercial, and industrial slavery, to which they have subjected the great body of the people, both black and white. And yet these imposters now cry out that they have abolished the chattel slavery of the black man – although that was not the motive of the war – as if they thought they could thereby conceal, atone for, or justify that other slavery which they were fighting to perpetuate, and to render more rigorous and inexorable than it ever was before. There was no difference of principle – but only of degree – between the slavery they boast they have abolished, and the slavery they were fighting to preserve; for all restraints upon men’s natural liberty, not necessary for the simple maintenance of justice, are of the nature of slavery, and differ from each other only in degree."


The argument for even these more subtle forms of slavery, is that they are for "the greater good", or "for the benefit of society", "necessary for human progress and for civilization itself".


Thus their argument is that, even if this form of "industrial slavery" is in violation of our natural rights and of natural laws, and of freedom itself... That people should just accept it for their own benefit. And that they are better off under this kind of slavery than you would be otherwise.


In the 1800's, the people who enslaved Africans, and subjugated the Native-Americans, actually believed they were doing them good, that they were bringing them civilization, morality, health, and even happiness. Slavery was nothing more than that same paternalistic(father knows best) instinct which has stripped away human freedom for all of human history. And which is still the foundation for all modern so-called "civilizations" to this day.

Some of them even made other moral arguments.


This is a pretty good video on the subject. At the ~7 minute mark he talks a little about slavery. Saying that it was better to own your slaves than to rent your laborers. When you own something, you actually take care of it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTPBx7xTdQE


I'm a huge critic of slavery, in all its forms. But lets understand, the story that the Civil War was about ending slavery was a lie. And the reason why I hate that story, is that it paints the Federal government as the "good guy". That in effect, slavery would have continued forever had it not been for government. That is an obvious lie, and such a myth exists only because it is useful to the state.

I come here to destroy the myth that the state either is the good guy, that it ever intended to end slavery, or especially the myth that it took the government to end slavery.

As Lysander Spooner wrote, "If their object had really been to abolish slavery, or maintain liberty or justice generally, they had only to say: All, whether white or black, who want the protection of this government, shall have it; and all who do not want it, will be left in peace, so long as they leave us in peace. Had they said this, slavery would necessarily have been abolished at once; the war would have been saved; and a thousand times nobler union than we have ever had would have been the result. It would have been a voluntary union of free men; such a union as will one day exist among all men, the world over, if the several nations, so called, shall ever get rid of the usurpers, robbers, and murderers, called governments, that now plunder, enslave, and destroy them."

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
Yes, and I posted in that thread.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/39537518-post259.html


My purpose here is to provide people the truth. The holocaust(if you want to call it that), is not how it is presented. In simplest terms, all history is manipulated, especially by the victors, for purposes of propaganda. If you start to question one thing you are taught, you end up questioning everything.

If you want to know why the holocaust has been exaggerated and misrepresented. You merely have to think about how useful the holocaust has been for certain groups of people(and how it has become impossible to even question it, it is a kind of religion).

The holocaust, and the "six million" number, was created at the end of WWII for "De-Nazification" of Germany, and for the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel. General Patton didn't think this denazification was necessary(and he mysteriously died not long after). And Patton effectively thought that we had been fighting the wrong enemy the entire time, that the real enemy in WWII, was the Soviet Union. And Patton had even pushed to rearm the German Army and advance on the Soviet Union.

Patton On Communism And The Khazar Jews

Patton said, "I have been at Frankfurt for a civil government conference. If what we are doing (to the Germans) is 'Liberty, then give me death.' I can't see how Americans can sink so low. It is Semitic, and I am sure of it."

General Patton felt we fought for the wrong side

"Berlin gave me the blues. We have destroyed what could have been a good race, and we are about to replace them with Mongolian savages. And all Europe will be communist. It's said that for the first week after they took it (Berlin), all women who ran were shot and those who did not were raped. I could have taken it (instead of the Soviets) had I been allowed."


Be careful about what you believe.

Last edited by Redshadowz; 05-10-2015 at 08:21 PM..
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:02 PM
 
Location: Northern NJ/Amagansett, NY
10,971 posts, read 10,196,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post

.........Patton On Communism And The Khazar Jews

Patton said, "I have been at Frankfurt for a civil government conference. If what we are doing (to the Germans) is 'Liberty, then give me death.' I can't see how Americans can sink so low. It is Semitic, and I am sure of it."

General Patton felt we fought for the wrong side

"Berlin gave me the blues. We have destroyed what could have been a good race, and we are about to replace them with Mongolian savages. And all Europe will be communist. It's said that for the first week after they took it (Berlin), all women who ran were shot and those who did not were raped. I could have taken it (instead of the Soviets) had I been allowed."


Be careful about what you believe.
It always amazes me how antisemites quote known, unapologetic, raging antisemites to bolster their point of view as if it had any value at all. Wow! You mean the guy who hates jews, hates jews? And he must be right, because he hates jews so he must know what he is talking about. What's next? Some Henry Ford references?

It's like asking a barber if he thinks you need a haircut.
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Old 05-10-2015, 10:36 PM
 
1,140 posts, read 976,705 times
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Those of you "patriotic Americans" should read this: Debunking the Myth of Freedom and Democracy in America with Facts and Overseas Experiences

And watch this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsCA3Urv1Ik

Wake up people!
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Old 05-10-2015, 11:15 PM
 
32,468 posts, read 26,339,737 times
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Originally Posted by motownewave View Post
great, now we have a conspiracy theory involving the freemasons. any other secret societies you want to invoke while you are at it? i am surpriseed that you didnt invoke the illuminati, or the bilderbergers, while you are at it.
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Old 05-11-2015, 12:04 AM
 
1,140 posts, read 976,705 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
great, now we have a conspiracy theory involving the freemasons. any other secret societies you want to invoke while you are at it? i am surpriseed that you didnt invoke the illuminati, or the bilderbergers, while you are at it.
I honestly have a question about the Freemasons: exactly what kind of **** goes down at Masonic meetings? My local paper runs ads every week with a "to be one, ask one" phone number for the local lodge, but I don't know what the fuk I would be asking them for the right to do, and don't want to sound like a jackass calling to ask but being myself totally clueless...
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Old 05-11-2015, 12:15 AM
 
Location: honolulu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motownewave View Post
In a heartbeat I would undo the "discovery" of the so-called "New World" (that name itself makes me vomit) by Columbus, and the ensuing slaughter of Native Americans (to call them "Indians" is an insult, although some of them prefer that term) and destruction of their habitats and culture by Europeans. Yes, I realize if I "undid" this, I wouldn't be here today, nor would the culture that I identify with.

I also am disgusted that Americans boast of "liberty" and "freedom" that they DO NOT have and NEVER DID have. Americans from all walks of life, both liberal and conservative, talk about how they have a "Constitutional right" to do this, or a "Constitutional right" to do that... this is all in their imaginations, and every American except me seems to have some ridiculous fantasy about what the Constitution says, using the very word "Constitution" in a sentence when trying to persuade anyone to accept a political point.

Here's what the Constitution actually is: a document written by SLAVEOWNERS (yes, they were white supremacists, and "all men are created equal" did NOT apply to non-white races in the view of these slaveowners). Also, the right-wing religious folks who insist the "Founding Fathers" (again, they were glorified slaveowners) envisioned America as a "Christian nation" are just plain mistaken, or even worse, are trying to rewrite historical facts. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists, who believed a "creator" existed, but believed the same "creator" had no vision for the future of humanity. And guess what... Deism is now an almost entirely extinct religion because basic science eventually led Deists to become either atheists or agnostics. Why we in this country still adhere to an intellectual document written by people of an extinct religion and culture that NO (okay maybe two or three folks out in North Dakota somewhere) Americans today believe in is beyond me.

I'm not necessarily trying to destroy any American's fantasy about their country's history (in fact, Mormonism is a religion based on the notion that God directly had a hand in leading whites to eventually conquer the Americas), but I wish people inspired by the ACLU and other activist groups would stop b*tching about "The Constitution". People love to put words in the mouths of the Founding Fathers and are crying because maybe white police officers were disrespectful to an African American (which I'm sure does indeed happen, and it saddens me) but nothing in the Constitution should make us be surprised about that. And no, the Constitution doesn't entitle people to UNLIMITED gun rights, unlike the baloney and mumbo jumbo preached by the NRA. And these are just two examples of delusions held by both conservatives and liberals alike.
interesting post... thoughts on Hawaii??
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Old 05-11-2015, 02:07 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
30,464 posts, read 20,108,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motownewave View Post
I don't "hate" anyone. As a very open-minded person, I simply wish Americans wouldn't romanticize about the Founding Fathers and Constitution. And there would have been HELL to pay if I were a Native American the day the European warships started bringing large numbers of people to my land. Or if I were there when the first slave ship came, I would lead a band of my fellow men to raid the ship, kill all the whites on board, and welcome the slaves to my land. And I would burn the ship down.

As for the hype about "Western civilization" and its unique greatness, the idea that only white Europeans were smart enough to create it is horsesh!t. Japan is what I consider to be the greatest nation on Earth, and its very smart people have the same DNA as Native Americans. What the Japanese did to Americans (and Chinese for that matter) a generation ago is regrettable but was motivated by very deep spiritual convictions that I think overall were a force for justice, not evil. Hong Kong, Taiwan, and South Korea owe a lot of their good fortune to Japan, who has defended all three from Chinese aggression throughout the centuries (but I will admit many Korean women were raped by Japanese forces), though unfortunately China once again owns the once-British colony Hong Kong. Civil unrest lately has made me think either Japan or Russia will help Hong Kong fight China for independence eventually though.




"Japan is what I consider to be the greatest nation on Earth, and its very smart people have the same DNA as Native Americans."



Since when?


http://www.nature.com/articles/nature12736.epdf?referrer_access_token=Me_Wop1g5yf II0pO8EEF4NRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0MgeZRVqbx1kc_WY67-suw_cGMgX6ju8iGefcj0iZhULMTErXiwOabXPoPTvlWq7_dVMM KUVK1ypB-NQJqfA15sQVMTHiVimFWbeMa_B9EHxoiEHegfgjKIRFhbY-uMdUGfkMb2s1KhMVICRphbvlKh5HRvX7ghDSkjNPsXBvNWsOv4 CMvWQNsOV537C_NqPRu19vYU7WZ9uwrHRFb0kKcC5K1DphGXSu D3CoVUnswAsw%3D%3D&tracking_referrer=news.national geographic.com
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Old 05-11-2015, 02:26 AM
 
32,468 posts, read 26,339,737 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motownewave View Post
I honestly have a question about the Freemasons: exactly what kind of **** goes down at Masonic meetings? My local paper runs ads every week with a "to be one, ask one" phone number for the local lodge, but I don't know what the fuk I would be asking them for the right to do, and don't want to sound like a jackass calling to ask but being myself totally clueless...
well then study up on them;

Freemasonry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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