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Old 05-10-2015, 07:57 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
well, I've been to Korea too and I have never experienced the hostility you described. Maybe my experience has been different.
If you look Japanese then of course they're not going to come out and throw it in your face. If you're Asian than surely you're familiar with the non-confrontational socialization of Asians as well as the rigid boundaries between outward and inward behaviors.

I had my Japanese friend visit while I was in Korea and she almost got into a fight because she said that she was from Fukushima and the man she was talking to thought she said 'Takeshima', which is the Japanese name for Dokdo, an island that is part of a territory dispute between Korea and Japan. She didn't even realize it at the time and I sort of quietly moved us both out of the line of fire.

Dokdo is written about in their history books, students are taken on field trips to see it (although there is nothing there worth seeing), and it is a national symbol of their struggle against Japan. A K-pop singer actually took out an ad in the New York Times because she was under the impression it was some sort of grave humanitarian situation where foreign people are going to care about their righteous struggle.

Of course, not all of the Koreans are like that or believe the hype is worth getting upset over, but their anger over the Japanese colonial period is institutionalized. Enjoying anime isn't the same thing as loving a country-- George Lucas borrowed from Nazi Propaganda films, but that doesn't mean he's a white supremacist.

You can't dominate a country for almost half a century without it showing up in the history books and pissing people off for a few generations... and it's even worse when that country is as deeply nationalistic as Korea.
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Old 05-10-2015, 07:59 AM
 
4,986 posts, read 2,670,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motownewave View Post
In a heartbeat I would undo the "discovery" of the so-called "New World" (that name itself makes me vomit) by Columbus, and the ensuing slaughter of Native Americans (to call them "Indians" is an insult, although some of them prefer that term) and destruction of their habitats and culture by Europeans. Yes, I realize if I "undid" this, I wouldn't be here today, nor would the culture that I identify with.

I also am disgusted that Americans boast of "liberty" and "freedom" that they DO NOT have and NEVER DID have. Americans from all walks of life, both liberal and conservative, talk about how they have a "Constitutional right" to do this, or a "Constitutional right" to do that... this is all in their imaginations, and every American except me seems to have some ridiculous fantasy about what the Constitution says, using the very word "Constitution" in a sentence when trying to persuade anyone to accept a political point.

Here's what the Constitution actually is: a document written by SLAVEOWNERS (yes, they were white supremacists, and "all men are created equal" did NOT apply to non-white races in the view of these slaveowners). Also, the right-wing religious folks who insist the "Founding Fathers" (again, they were glorified slaveowners) envisioned America as a "Christian nation" are just plain mistaken, or even worse, are trying to rewrite historical facts. Most of the Founding Fathers were Deists, who believed a "creator" existed, but believed the same "creator" had no vision for the future of humanity. And guess what... Deism is now an almost entirely extinct religion because basic science eventually led Deists to become either atheists or agnostics. Why we in this country still adhere to an intellectual document written by people of an extinct religion and culture that NO (okay maybe two or three folks out in North Dakota somewhere) Americans today believe in is beyond me.

I'm not necessarily trying to destroy any American's fantasy about their country's history (in fact, Mormonism is a religion based on the notion that God directly had a hand in leading whites to eventually conquer the Americas), but I wish people inspired by the ACLU and other activist groups would stop b*tching about "The Constitution". People love to put words in the mouths of the Founding Fathers and are crying because maybe white police officers were disrespectful to an African American (which I'm sure does indeed happen, and it saddens me) but nothing in the Constitution should make us be surprised about that. And no, the Constitution doesn't entitle people to UNLIMITED gun rights, unlike the baloney and mumbo jumbo preached by the NRA. And these are just two examples of delusions held by both conservatives and liberals alike.
This is what you get when generations are educated on how racist and evil the nation they live in is. This is why America is dead. You just don't know it yet.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Riding the light...
1,635 posts, read 1,471,484 times
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The cost of another public education wasted, not to mention the time and effort. At least No_Recess, ORION83, and millions of others haven't wasted too much cash on education taxes over the last three minutes.

OP, if we're going along with revisionism, would you rather have taken your chances in a Nazi run European market? Or a Palestinian controlled Middle Eastern caliphate? And a China that had never emerged from communist slavery? Or a communist Russia for that matter?

Or had you just preferred the teepee lifestyle?.. with no internet? Well, excepting for the colorized smoke signals
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
33,384 posts, read 20,152,781 times
Reputation: 13049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
If you look Japanese then of course they're not going to come out and throw it in your face. If you're Asian than surely you're familiar with the non-confrontational socialization of Asians as well as the rigid boundaries between outward and inward behaviors.

I had my Japanese friend visit while I was in Korea and she almost got into a fight because she said that she was from Fukushima and the man she was talking to thought she said 'Takeshima', which is the Japanese name for Dokdo, an island that is part of a territory dispute between Korea and Japan.

Dokdo is written about in their history books, students are taken on field trips to see it (although there is nothing there worth seeing), and it is a national symbol of their struggle against Japan. A K-pop singer actually took out an ad in the New York Times because she was under the impression it was some sort of grave humanitarian situation where foreign people are going to care about their righteous struggle.

Of course, not all of the Koreans are like that or believe the hype is worth getting upset over, but their anger over the Japanese colonial period is institutionalized. You can't dominate a country for almost half a century without it showing up in the history books and pissing people off for a few generations.
well, nobody can deny that. But how long this hostility will last? Forever?

Like I said, I've been to Korea, and I loved their night club, and being mixed is just awesome because there were always people came up to me and asked me to hang out.

We are in our 20s and nobody cared about that ancient history. The origin of the hostility always started with "which country has the hottest girls? " "which country has better technology." Korea is a pretty proud country too.

And Koreans even wear the Nazi outfit like this

http://www.lazerhorse.org/wp-content...ding-Photo.jpg



The bottom line is that hatred cannot cure hatred. Do you think I will care about their suffering when they say, 'Oh, your ancestors are criminals?"

Nope, my grandpa's family came to the United Stated before 1900, they were Germans. I've checked my history, none of my Japanese side was involved with nanjing massacre or pearl harbor. Somehow, I have to hear about it over and over and over again? No thank you

I've done my part, post 22. That is all I am going to do. I am on the outside looking in. I will never deny history. No the Koreans and the Chinese don't deserve it. Japanese in the past were aholes. But, do not call me or my family any names, WE do not deserve it. That is my take.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:12 AM
 
45,465 posts, read 18,014,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motownewave View Post
Let me add some points: the REAL reason for the American Revolution was NOT to defend "freedom" or "democracy". In fact, the main motivation for it was to break away from the British Empire before it ABOLISHED slavery... which happened much earlier in the UK than it did in America, and there was no war about the issue in the UK.
You don't speak from fact.
  • Declaration of Independence - 1776
  • British Slavery Abolition Act - 1833 (but it continued to allow Slavery in colonial territories)
  • British Slave Trade Act -1843 (ended most colonial slavery)
  • Slavery ended in USA - 1865
  • British Slave Trade Act - 1873 (ended all slavery in British Empire)
Given that the British Empire had established a slave dependent economy in the South. This slave economy provided the British nobility and royal family with great profits and supplied the empire with tobacco and cotton. It is not unreasonable to assume that had the colonies would have had slavery at at least until 1843. Maybe longer.

This is 67 years. This is well beyond the average lifetime of any adult living in 1776 and especially of that of the Founding fathers. Hence there would be no reason for them to believe that slavery would be abolished by the British.



i.e. Your theory is nonsense. The facts absolutely don't support it.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:20 AM
 
2,778 posts, read 1,429,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyflower3191981 View Post
I've done my part, post 22. That is all I am going to do. I am on the outside looking in. I will never deny history. No the Koreans and the Chinese don't deserve it. Japanese in the past were aholes. But, do not call me or my family any names, WE do not deserve it. That is my take.
It's not only the massacre that they're upset about, it's the annexation and resulting colonial rule. Colonialism tends to involve suppressing the indigenous culture, destroying ways of life and transforming a public consciousness that has persisted for centuries or even millennia. The Koreans were able to recover some of their history and traditions, but they will never be the same again. In fact, the suppression and mutilation of their culture only made them more fervent about protecting it from outsiders, which is partly the reason for the racism, the nationalism, etc.

The least that people could do is acknowledge that colonialism wasn't a good thing that helped everyone and made the world a better place. Even if you aren't personally responsible, the fact is that entire ways of life have disappeared forever because of greed and nationalism. It's not about feeling guilty, it's about recognizing that a great wrong was committed and its effects persist into the present day.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:23 AM
 
45,465 posts, read 18,014,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
.....
The least that people could do is acknowledge that colonialism wasn't a good thing that helped everyone and made the world a better place. Even if you aren't personally responsible, the fact is that entire ways of life have disappeared forever because of greed and nationalism. It's not about feeling guilty, it's about recognizing that a great wrong was committed and its effects persist into the present day.

It's folly to pass judgment on the past based on the morals and standards of the present.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
33,384 posts, read 20,152,781 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spatula City View Post
It's not only the massacre that they're upset about, it's the annexation and resulting colonial rule. Colonialism tends to involve suppressing the indigenous culture, destroying ways of life and transforming a public consciousness that has persisted for centuries or even millennia. The Koreans were able to recover some of their history and traditions, but they will never be the same again. In fact, the suppression and mutilation of their culture only made them more fervent about protecting it from outsiders, which is partly the reason for the racism, the nationalism, etc.

The least that people could do is acknowledge that colonialism wasn't a good thing that helped everyone and made the world a better place. Even if you aren't personally responsible, the fact is that entire ways of life have disappeared forever because of greed and nationalism. It's not about feeling guilty, it's about recognizing that a great wrong was committed and its effects persist into the present day.
I agree with your post. Honestly, I do.

But you have to understand human, basic, human psychology.

When people say, "The Japs have done...maybe we should rape their women too." People of Japanese ancestry will not interpret it as "The least that people could do is acknowledge that colonialism wasn't a good thing that helped everyone and made the world a better place" They will interpret it as

"we want to kill you too."

I have gone out of my ways to debate a Neo Nazi holocaust denier when I was in Germany. The conversation was civil. I've gone out of my ways to debate a Japanese nationalist when I was in Japan. The conversation also has been pretty civil.

Nationalism is a belief, creed or political ideology that involves an individual identifying with, or becoming attached to, one's nation. It is really a complicated issue.

The bottom line is that you cannot cure hatred with hatred.

Edit: Look at Chinese history, look at how many Chinese killed others in order to expand their territory. Somehow, they've never apologized to anybody. I am not saying two wrong makes a right, but if a japanese person pointed it out, The japanese better go to hell.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:28 AM
 
Location: *
8,117 posts, read 2,426,131 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
To be fair, the Constitution's intent had nothing to do with slavery. The Declaration of Independence is the one that said "All men are created equal". Of course, the Declaration of Independence wasn't a legal document, and the Continental Congress removed Thomas Jefferson scathing criticism of the institution of slavery.

The Civil War was not fought over race-based slavery. I wish people would stop saying it. Even Lincoln admitted as such, during the Civil War.

Lincoln Address to Black Americans

Lincoln wrote, "We look to our condition, owing to the existence of the two races on this continent. I need not recount to you the effects upon white men, growing out of the institution of Slavery. I believe in its general evil effects on the white race. See our present condition---the country engaged in war!---our white men cutting one another's throats, none knowing how far it will extend; and then consider what we know to be the truth. But for your race among us there could not be war, although many men engaged on either side do not care for you one way or the other. Nevertheless, I repeat, without the institution of Slavery and the colored race as a basis, the war could not have an existence."


As Lincoln said, the Civil War was the outcome of the existence of slavery in the United States. The war was not fought over slavery. In fact, Lincoln originally intended to allow slavery to continue in the south. And that position held for the first two years of the war. ...
The War was not fought over slavery, it was fought over the existence of slavery? Doesn't that mean the same thing?

I think this is one of the reasons I feel uneasy about the present day.
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Old 05-10-2015, 08:45 AM
 
2,778 posts, read 1,429,563 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaldoKitty View Post
It's folly to pass judgment on the past based on the morals and standards of the present.
No it isn't.

When Germany was invaded by the Allies and the holocaust was discovered, it didn't suddenly become justifiable because the Germans were okay with it at the time.

Last edited by Spatula City; 05-10-2015 at 08:57 AM..
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