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Old 05-10-2015, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Iceland
876 posts, read 667,841 times
Reputation: 1018

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Immigration and culture. Arguably the 2 hottest issues in the west right now. It's an even greater problem in Europe since it's not even remotely as multicultural as America is.

It may sound like a radical thing to say, but I believe that far-right parties will continue to grow like they are currently until after a while they have become big mainstream parties instead of being only on the fringes.

Here is why I believe so...

Let's start by talking about what I believe is the real reason for why left-leaning parties/people (called liberals in the US, more often social-democrats and/or socialists in Europe) are in favor of open immigration and what they call "multiculture". Basically, the politics of the left is all about struggle and conflict. Conflict between the rich and poor. Conflict between the genders. Conflict between gays and non-gays. Conflict between this, conflict between that. This is 90% of their political strategy: Find a group, tell it that it is being oppressed or harmed by a third party, and that the only way this problem can be solved is if they are put into charge and given large amounts of power to "take care of the problem".

There exist all kinds of versions and variants of this within the left. Feminists (men are oppressing women!), anti-capitalists/socialists (the evil rich are oppressing the poor!), statist-atheists (religion is destroying society and should be banned!). Very rarely do the ideas coming from the left not involve someone being oppressed by some evil bogeyman from somewhere.

But while this strategy has worked to a certain degree, it suffers from a number of big flaws that prevent it from being a winning strategy:

1. There are only so many minority voters.

2. Anti-capitalism isn't that popular with most people having embraced one form of capitalism or the other.

3. Feminism, the only conflict idea that appealed to a broad portion of the nation (at least a half) has gotten increasingly unpopular as people are now catching on to the fact that the so called feminists don't actually care much about equality at all.

So...they hatched up a new radical plan to get their ideas to work: The mass importing of new "recruits" via mass immigration.

Their plan is simple:

1. Open the borders to let lots of new people in.

2. Under the pretext of multiculture they will do what they can to prevent immigrants from assimilating. Making sure that they remain a foreign people in a foreign land forever and hold on to their old nationalism.

3. And then after they have a whole bunch of new people in the country that considers itself a separate group, they resort to their old true and tried method of igniting class conflict. Except that this time, the theme is how the poor foreigners are being mistreated by the evil locals, who don't want to preserve the culture and tradition of the newcomers, and that cultural conservatism is just a fascist leftover from a older era where immigrants were actually expected to have respect for their new homeland and a symbol of oppression. And that in order to remove this oppression, the immigrants should only support the good old liberals/social-democrats/socialists. If not at once assuming they can't vote, then at least by making sure that their children will.

This is their plan. Their talk about multiculture being a way to build a more tolerant society is a load of tosh. If that were true then they would not defend muslims and other similar backwards groups even though they have no problems with attacking christians and other western religions. Multiculture is merely a political device that the left uses to import more future voters.

However, I predict that this plan of theirs is going to backfire HORRIBLY in the end. In fact, it has already started to do so to a degree. Because as tends to be the case with the left and their policies, they don't think things through. They don't consider the long-term effects of their actions. And in this case, the long term effect is the growth of the far-right.

Those who have been paying attention know that the far-right is growing in the west, perhaps more in Europe than anywhere else. And I believe there are 2 main reasons for why this is the case:

1. The most obvious factor is the increasing flow of immigrants who don't adapt thanks to the polices of the left.

2. Because of the left's general policy of trying to simply censor either through law or through other means the disagreement of others.

Nr.1 is a pretty obvious reason that requires no real further explaining, but I am going to explain nr.2 a bit more.

The class-struggle preaching people of the left believe that if they can control the discussion then they can control policy. And sadly they have been right to a horrifying degree. This is why they prevent people from speaking too badly about their ideas and policies openly through the use of bullying, personal attacks, or even outright force via so called "hate speech" laws. The end result is a society that does as the left wants it out of fear of being bullied.

However, what these people fail to understand is that by doing this they are actually digging their own graves. Creating the appearance of agreement through bullying is not the same as creating actual agreement. In addition, it also nurtures hate and resentment. Both of those things benefit the far-right more than anything. The end result is that the polices of the left are increasing, NOT decreasing, the power of the far-right.

I haven't seen much that suggests this strategy of the left is changing anytime soon, and if anything it's only getting worse.

Do you agree that a far-right dominated west might soon become a realistic possibility?
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 14,225,380 times
Reputation: 7950
The track record of democracies is to go in the direction of collectivism. Democracies generally wind up being run for the benefit of those at the top, as public choice economists have shown. This is true whether for a union, where members have a vote, or a corporation, where stockholders have a vote, or a pokemon club. The benefits flow to those who run the show.

Collectivism better serves the interests of those at the top. Collectivism puts the power and money in their hands, as opposed to individualism (far right) which would instead put decisions back into the hands of the individual.

The US has an individualist-oriented Constitution which has slowed, but not stopped the rush to collectivism. There are some small pockets of individualism such as the Swiss and New Zealand, but by and large the world embraces collectivism, and this is unlikely to change until we find a better system than democracy.
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:53 PM
 
Location: NE Ohio
30,194 posts, read 16,573,628 times
Reputation: 8847
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
The track record of democracies is to go in the direction of collectivism. Democracies generally wind up being run for the benefit of those at the top, as public choice economists have shown. This is true whether for a union, where members have a vote, or a corporation, where stockholders have a vote, or a pokemon club. The benefits flow to those who run the show.

Collectivism better serves the interests of those at the top. Collectivism puts the power and money in their hands, as opposed to individualism (far right) which would instead put decisions back into the hands of the individual.

The US has an individualist-oriented Constitution which has slowed, but not stopped the rush to collectivism. There are some small pockets of individualism such as the Swiss and New Zealand, but by and large the world embraces collectivism, and this is unlikely to change until we find a better system than democracy.
Bam! I applaud you! A++
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:54 PM
 
2,727 posts, read 2,264,916 times
Reputation: 4060
Unfortunately, I think it's gotten to a point where the inmates a re running the asylum. And it's absolutely amazing how the left can be manipulated - just look at the black lives matter. There's all these leftist whites out there protesting, while blacks are killing each other at 12x the rate of any other race, and for every black person killed by a white, 2.5 white people are killed by black each and every year. Yet politicians through out their talking points and get their votes.
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:55 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
8,090 posts, read 4,695,507 times
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In my opinion, the future of Western Civilization is all about nationalism vs internationalism.

Either there will be a resurgence of nationalism, and immigration will be cut off. Or there will be a destruction of nationalism(at least as we know it today). Which will either lead to a more international/integrated/global world. Or it will lead to a dissolution of the world's nations themselves.

The major powers(IE bankers, corporations, IMF, United Nations, etc) are doing everything in their power to create an international future. While the people themselves(especially the lower-classes) tend to be far less supportive, and even hostile to, internationalism.


As much as I hate nationalism, I REALLY despise internationalism. I'm hoping immigration, liberalism, and globalism ultimately cause the collapse of Western Civilization itself.


To the extent that this appears to be "left vs right". That is entirely relative, and is just a function of democracy. The reason why Democracy tends towards collectivism, is because Democracy gives everyone an equal right to vote. Equal right to vote, always leads to demands of equality. The only thing that slows this collectivism down, is ironically introducing diverse groups of people who don't get along, and don't see each other as the same group.

So liberals might be using minorities to get votes, but they are also guaranteeing the country will be more and more divided. That strategy obviously isn't sustainable, but what else can they do?

Last edited by Redshadowz; 05-10-2015 at 04:03 PM..
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Old 05-10-2015, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Iceland
876 posts, read 667,841 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
The track record of democracies is to go in the direction of collectivism. Democracies generally wind up being run for the benefit of those at the top, as public choice economists have shown. This is true whether for a union, where members have a vote, or a corporation, where stockholders have a vote, or a pokemon club. The benefits flow to those who run the show.

Collectivism better serves the interests of those at the top. Collectivism puts the power and money in their hands, as opposed to individualism (far right) which would instead put decisions back into the hands of the individual.

The US has an individualist-oriented Constitution which has slowed, but not stopped the rush to collectivism. There are some small pockets of individualism such as the Swiss and New Zealand, but by and large the world embraces collectivism, and this is unlikely to change until we find a better system than democracy.
Sure, but I don't think you really understood what my post was about. My point was that because the left's attempt to increase it's power though mass immigration, in the long term it will probably shoot itself in the foot instead by giving birth to the rise of the far-right. And note that when I used the term far-right, I meant far-right as in right-wing populist anti-immigrant movements.
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Old 05-10-2015, 04:01 PM
 
7,328 posts, read 3,996,511 times
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"Why the Far-right will soon dominate the Western world!"

Gee I always thought that already do....

Oh, unless you are talking about the le Pens, Walkers, Melonis and wouldbe No Nothings here in the U.S., oh they have their day then everyone comes to their senses, although usually after cataclysmic destruction of personal freedom and we go on to become an ever progressive world.
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Old 05-10-2015, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Iceland
876 posts, read 667,841 times
Reputation: 1018
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWiseWino View Post
"Why the Far-right will soon dominate the Western world!"

Gee I always thought that already do....

Oh, unless you are talking about the le Pens, Walkers, Melonis and wouldbe No Nothings here in the U.S., oh they have their day then everyone comes to their senses, although usually after cataclysmic destruction of personal freedom and we go on to become an ever progressive world.
I don't think you understand. These movements aren't growing because of some temporary economic chaos which then withers away with time. The far-right is growing even in nations that are not doing so badly economically. I can think of no reason for why these people should suddenly just start losing their popularity.
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Old 05-10-2015, 04:13 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
8,090 posts, read 4,695,507 times
Reputation: 2877
Quote:
Originally Posted by hakkarin View Post
I don't think you understand. These movements aren't growing because of some temporary economic chaos which then withers away with time. The far-right is growing even in nations that are not doing so badly economically. I can think of no reason for why these people should suddenly just start losing their popularity.

Look, all the far-right movements that I'm aware of, are all "Nationalist" movements. And in most cases, its either a response to large-scale immigration, or concerns over loss of sovereignty to one entity or another(whether it be the European Union, the United Nations, or in America even to Washington D.C., Canada you have the Quebecois Nationalists).


There are certainly cultural concerns associated with these nationalist movements, but nationalism itself is all about culture/identity.


The issue, as I said, is whether nationalism will triumph over internationalism and push it back, or if internationalism will finally triumph over nationalism. That is the crisis that is happening across the world, especially in Europe.
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Old 05-10-2015, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
8,090 posts, read 4,695,507 times
Reputation: 2877
Quote:
Originally Posted by hakkarin View Post
I don't think you understand. These movements aren't growing because of some temporary economic chaos which then withers away with time. The far-right is growing even in nations that are not doing so badly economically. I can think of no reason for why these people should suddenly just start losing their popularity.

I want to add, nationalism always sprouts up during times of economic troubles. Nationalism took off in Europe in the economic chaos after WWI, and especially during the Great Depression. America and Britain went through quite a bit of nationalism during that time as well. In fact, the United States was as national as it has ever been during and immediately after WWII(IE the 1950's that everyone rants about).


It is true that countries which aren't doing badly/as badly can also become national, but it is sort of the collateral effect of the rise of nationalism elsewhere, especially in neighboring countries, and the political/economic concerns/instability which can emanate from it.

For instance, Germany might be doing pretty well, but the chaos in Greece and in other parts of the Europe, and the issue of "debts", and the potential economic ramifications of the debt problem, is turning Germany at least "more nationalist".
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