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Old 05-14-2015, 06:53 AM
 
15,066 posts, read 6,144,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arjay57 View Post
We were not willing to see our young men and women coming home in body bags.
Wish we would take that approach more often.
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:08 AM
 
231 posts, read 171,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
Perhaps, but it is what it is. Who knows how many nations would have existed without European colonialism by this point? The continent has over 1000 ethnicities. In a world of nation-states, it may have ended up with hundreds of nations by now.
Or one, using New Guinea as an example.

You can argue that the least harmful way to treat Africa below the Sahara would be to have cordoned it off completely. Any introduction of new technology beyond simple metal working, especially transport and weaponry, is bound to have resulted in some serious strife. The existence of different languages implies de facto borders and some degree of conflict already, and simply mixing two ant hills together never ends up with pretty results.

One nice side effect of treating Africa as a giant version of Papua New Guinea (or even more isolated) is that there might be some hope for the ecology of the continent. As it is, the population bomb going off there is going to have truly sad results in terms of wildlife.
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Old 05-14-2015, 07:40 AM
 
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No, Bill did not drop the ball.

As horrific as it became, I doubt our GIs would have been able to discern between the two warring ethnicities.
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Old 05-14-2015, 11:23 PM
 
15,066 posts, read 6,144,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Notaras View Post
Or one, using New Guinea as an example.

You can argue that the least harmful way to treat Africa below the Sahara would be to have cordoned it off completely. Any introduction of new technology beyond simple metal working, especially transport and weaponry, is bound to have resulted in some serious strife. The existence of different languages implies de facto borders and some degree of conflict already, and simply mixing two ant hills together never ends up with pretty results.

One nice side effect of treating Africa as a giant version of Papua New Guinea (or even more isolated) is that there might be some hope for the ecology of the continent. As it is, the population bomb going off there is going to have truly sad results in terms of wildlife.
If Europe, which is less diverse, is not one nation then it certainly would not be an option for Africa.
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Old 05-14-2015, 11:55 PM
 
Location: Aztlan
2,686 posts, read 1,765,600 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moth View Post
No, Bill did not drop the ball.

As horrific as it became, I doubt our GIs would have been able to discern between the two warring ethnicities.
That sounds a lot like all black people looking the same.
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Old 05-15-2015, 06:21 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,652 posts, read 60,572,966 times
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Our government only "cares" about the human rights of people who live in countries that are directly tied to our economy.

That being said, there's a cold sort of logic to that. We can't and shouldn't be the world's police or rescue squad.
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Old 05-15-2015, 06:30 AM
 
Location: Florida
77,013 posts, read 47,481,489 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Our government only "cares" about the human rights of people who live in countries that are directly tied to our economy.

That being said, there's a cold sort of logic to that. We can't and shouldn't be the world's police or rescue squad.
I don't think Somalia and Bosnia are directly tied to our economy, but we put boots on the ground anyway.
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:04 AM
 
Location: Wonderland
67,652 posts, read 60,572,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I don't think Somalia and Bosnia are directly tied to our economy, but we put boots on the ground anyway.
Somalia is a breeding ground for Islamic extremists. Somali pirates regularly take over US and other allies' ships, taking hostages. And Al Shabaab, with bases in Somalia, regularly conducts terrorist attacks in other East African countries.

Why a stable Somalia is in our interests - Matt Baugh


A Threat to the U.S. and Its Interests in East Africa - NYTimes.com

As for Bosnia, the Balkans have always been a hotbed when it comes to the economic interests of Europe and our NATO allies.

America, Bosnia, Europe: A Compelling Interest - Carnegie Endowment for International Peace
CONFLICT IN THE BALKANS - Clinton Outlines U.S. Interest in Bosnia Air Strikes - NYTimes.com

That being said, due in part to a lack of concrete interests in Bosnia, the US held off on getting involved for years - a stand that was roundly criticized world wide due to the ongoing genocide, ethnic "cleansing," concentration camps, etc that were present in Bosnia, at Europe's doorstep.

Good article on the Bosnia situation:
Decision to Intervene: How the War in Bosnia Ended | Brookings Institution
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:16 AM
 
231 posts, read 171,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caribdoll View Post
If Europe, which is less diverse, is not one nation then it certainly would not be an option for Africa.
New Guinea really is a good counter example. 800+ languages, only half of them are related. All against all kinds of warfare in different areas. Admittedly, it's quite a lot smaller.

There is something to be said for a disinterested third party to come in and run affairs, hopefully at some profit to themselves (although most British-held areas were actually money losers for the mothership) if it can give you some standardized rule of law, court system, transportation network etc., but those days are gone I'm afraid. If nothing else, Mikhail Kalashnikov has seen to that.

My own personal feeling is that nations (as opposed to countries) that are inhabited by a culture that has it's act together can be the best examples of human progress, but modern politics and ease of transport have decided to grind them up.
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Old 05-15-2015, 07:21 AM
 
231 posts, read 171,293 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by KathrynAragon View Post
Somalia is a breeding ground for Islamic extremists. Somali pirates regularly take over US and other allies' ships, taking hostages. And Al Shabaab, with bases in Somalia, regularly conducts terrorist attacks in other East African countries.

...
It seems to me that reducing the hassles emanating from Somalia would cost a lot less than actually trying to stabilize and run the country. Anti-piracy measures (complete with yardarms) combined with the random destruction of any terrorist base would certainly be less expensive than active management.

The whole continent is bound to blow up due to demographic pressure, so you'll have to pick and choose your battles.
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