Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
This is not 1820, we are not exploring the western wilderness by wagon train.
You know, people make this statement and others like it all the time, and other than the technology what has changed since 1820 and now? Most of the population of even America was not exploring the western Wilderness by wagon train in 1820 (in fact if there was a wagon train, the area they were heading to had already been explored). So how is life (other than technology) different, and if technology is making life fundamentally different, how is it doing so, what basic needs are now required that were not 200 years ago?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
For brevity sake, I will make only one example, that of public utilities. Public utilities are
a necessity for over 99% of the population. In the passing decades, we've seen extremely
large, and often foreign corporations purchase our electrical grid, power generation plants,
natural gas distribution companies, oil companies, and so on. These corporations are tax-
evasive, tax-favored, and operate solely on a for-profit basis which demands increasing
margins of profit for the exclusive few who own them. They influence and manipulate
public opinion and politicians, seemingly always able to increase prices regardless of any
valid argument that price increases are unjustified, and their profit margins are too damn high.
Many of these corporations are allowed to buy out various forms of energy, for example,
the National Grid corporation is English, and owns my local electric plant, and my local
natural gas company. The bills are always going higher. Their profits are always maintained
or increased, to the detriment of the populations they "serve". The word "serve" should not
be applied, because they are not "serving", but rather they are monopolizing and taking
advantage of their position of control.
Not brief really, but lets examine this.
What is there to stop you from disconnecting from the power corps? Is it the corporations, or your local/state/federal government? If it's the government, then the problem is not with the corporations. There is no reason you should not be able to control precisely what comes to your property, or within reason (i.e. you're not impacting the rights of others on adjacent property, or producing massive quantities of poisonous fumes or liquids) what you use your property for.
The issue as I see it from your discussion is that there is an assumption that you cannot either provide power for yourself or do with less of it, or none at all. Of course you can provide yourself with power, there are many off grid systems you can buy that will provide you with adequate power (as long as you're not using a plasma cutter), for high intensity power you may need to augment with something else, but these too are available.
That said then the issue is not that you need the power company, it's that you either see the power company as more cost effective, in which case stop complaining about their profits, or, you're prevented from supplying your own needs because of local ordinances, in which case place the blame where it belongs on government.
The red herring is corporations, without government complicity they cannot alter law (since government writes the law). The electorate should be demanding that government not be complicit, and be held accountable to their constituents. My last job required me to inform HR if any partner company gave me any gift in excess of $50, it also required partners to inform them if they were offering such a gift. Now that didn't stop people offering them or taking them (not that I did), but, if it were discovered you violated policy it was an automatically fireable offense, and if the partner was not transparent in it's offer then it also automatically terminated the contract. Why aren't government representatives at all levels held to that kind of policy? Require all offers of gifts to politicians from corporations to be publically notifiable, require politicians to have to report any offers (whether they accept or not) and make acceptance of any offer an instantly ejectable offense? What would be the point of paying off a politician if they are then subsequently fired for taking a bribe (because that's what it is)? Of course politicians will say they deserve the right to privacy and so on, but they chose to enter that field, a surgeon would not get much sympathy if they complained they didn't want to stick their hands in someone's innards, the likely response would be, well do some other job then.
So I disagree this isn't a problem with corporations, they're just doing what they do, that being finding ways to make money within legal bounds. The electorate has been asleep at the wheel and not held their government accountable, and of course government is a seat of power and thus should always be suspect of corruption.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snowball7
If power can be produced and distributed for, say, 40% less, then it should be.
There's your capitalist "markup". Well, people are waking up and saying, take your
"markup" and shove it where the sun don't shine. My position is even more extreme.
I want the beneficiaries of these predatory institutions to pay it back to the people.
They had their party. Cough it up or go to jail. The communities should declare
eminent domain on all their holdings. What the heck, we ALREADY PAID FOR IT.
The communities should own their own power. The utilities should be maintained and
operated by the communities on a non-profit basis.
Well wake up, and shove it where the sun don't shine, cut the power cables and provide your own. Then you would own your power and the means to generate it, and the operating costs too. There's nothing stopping you, unless your government has prevented it, and in which case you can lobby to eliminate that restriction. Go ahead and take action either within your local government or council, or national government, or figure out an alternative, other people have, I have (no power cables to me, and I'm on the internet and posting this message).
You should move to a communist country where people share your beliefs. North Korea and Cuba come to mind.
Those are poor, isolated non-examples. Autocratic totalitarianism is not what I was
speaking about. Typical status-quo response, "don't look over here, look over there !",
and the conversation ends, because you raise non-relevant straw men.
Well wake up, and shove it where the sun don't shine, cut the power cables and provide your own. Then you would own your power and the means to generate it, and the operating costs too. There's nothing stopping you, unless your government has prevented it, and in which case you can lobby to eliminate that restriction. Go ahead and take action either within your local government or council, or national government, or figure out an alternative, other people have, I have (no power cables to me, and I'm on the internet and posting this message).
Well, congratulations, but nothing you've said here provides a true counter-argument
to what I've said, because I did say that 99% of the public relies on utilities.
You live in Alaska. Alaska is not similar to the rest of the country. There are some
municipal power non-profits already. They charge less than the for-profits. But by
and large, the power in the US is provided by predatory firms who overcharge the
public.
You know, people make this statement and others like it all the time, and other than the technology what has changed since 1820 and now? Most of the population of even America was not exploring the western Wilderness by wagon train in 1820 (in fact if there was a wagon train, the area they were heading to had already been explored). So how is life (other than technology) different, and if technology is making life fundamentally different, how is it doing so, what basic needs are now required that were not 200 years ago.
There are thousands of important ways in which life today is far different and our
government is far different, and our way of life is far different than 200 years ago.
It is simply unfathomable that anyone could say such a thing. I'll simply have to
leave it to your thoughts because I don't think you've thought that one through much.
Those are poor, isolated non-examples. Autocratic totalitarianism is not what I was
speaking about. Typical status-quo response, "don't look over here, look over there !",
and the conversation ends, because you raise non-relevant straw men.
There's a reason why more socialism = more poor and isolated.
It's never enough for a progressive. The nagging and whining never stops until there's more restriction and dogma and increasing degrees of autocratic totalitarianism.
After all, you didn't think the socialists would stop at guns did you?
There are thousands of important ways in which life today is far different and our government is far different, and our way of life is far different than 200 years ago.
It is simply unfathomable that anyone could say such a thing. I'll simply have to
leave it to your thoughts because I don't think you've thought that one through much.
Life is far different, but that isn't what I asked. What I asked is what fundamental changes in our basic needs has technology introduced?
Think about it, basic needs, would you like me to provide you a short list of these basic needs?
Well, congratulations, but nothing you've said here provides a true counter-argument to what I've said, because I did say that 99% of the public relies on utilities.
You live in Alaska. Alaska is not similar to the rest of the country. There are some
municipal power non-profits already. They charge less than the for-profits. But by
and large, the power in the US is provided by predatory firms who overcharge the
public.
I've said point blank in the section you cut where I think the problem lies, and it's not corporate, it's government, and as we are the electorate and determine who we elect it means we are to blame.
If you think corporations are being predatory then stop using them, it's pretty simple.
And Snowball, if you're going to ban capitalism, like in the past you'd better have a comprehensive police- and surveillance-state that's expansive enough to monitor and enforce compliance with the anti-capitalist model. "Everyone must comply"--that's the progressive leftist motto.
The revenue needed to implement that kind of authoritarianism is where progressive leftism always comes in.
So, it appears your capitalist lawyer got you some money, did you thank him for being a capitalist?
And, yes you are writing on a capitalist computer....
If the government had always been in charge of consumer computing, we would all have an extra pair of hands, made out of plastic, to double our counting capacity.
I tell you where the crime, is the government has no authority to give money to businesses, it has no authority to benefit any group or business and or free exchange of goods. It has no authority as per the constitution.
Once this started, government and business became the disease that has destroyed capitalism. We have democratic socialism with the illusion of capitalism. I love how we call this capitalism this is not capitalism. If anything is organized crime its a government who has no principles of freedom or liberty of the individual its all about CONTROL.
The Criminals are in Washington which Americans elected who took an oath to uphold the constitution and founding principles of freedom. While they do trade deals in secret, backroom deals and work with businesses to created one big socialist healthcare system. This is nothing new. Capitalism slowed died since the 1930s.
Washington is full of lobbyist, and lawyers who write laws that benefit them.
But if washington was full of principled people who love liberty and truthful and most importantly do not use power to control markets, good and services you would find businesses will be out of the washington lobbying game.
IE follow the constitution. Limit the power of government and with no power businesses will move out of the DC.
GM should be gone, every bank that failed should have failed, and every business who was part of the government sponsored loans with no risk should be in jail and or fired. Instead they were bailed out and money went missing. Still to this day billions of dollars is unaccounted for in the bailout of 2008. This are the people we trust to run our lives? To protect liberty? Your Freedom? The criminals are found in the us government. Who is going to arrest them, they going to arrest themselves?
Term limits and educated people I hope come to the light of liberty and what limited government REALLY means.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
