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Old 05-20-2015, 07:01 PM
 
11,919 posts, read 6,513,181 times
Reputation: 13884

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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I think you are lying.

It would be hard pressed for a kid to not know anyone with jobs. Also it would be hard pressed to not have any good black students in a predominantly black high schools. Even the ones with dismal scores usually have 20-30% of the students performing well academically and most of the poor black high schools that I have been affiliated with have a good group of graduates who claim hundreds of thousands of scholarships every year.

How could they come from 4th generation welfare in the 1980s? Welfare hadn't been around for 4 generations in the 1980s

The rest of your blurb reeks of conservative media talking points.

Black American's culture is American culture.

As stated, I also went to school with many Asian refugees in the 1980s. More than half of them struggled with the language difference and didn't do extraordinarily well in school. About 4 of them did in my grade level as we were all in the TAG program. But out of the 50 of us, only 4 were Asian/Vietnamese. The rest of us were white (22 were white), black (16 were black, including me), Hispanic (7 were Chicano - Mexican heritage but 4th generation American), and we had an Iranian/Arab.
You WISH I were lying.
I am sure there must have been some people in their neighborhoods who had jobs, but these kids' PERCEPTION was that no one they knew worked, and so what was the point of trying to connect the dots between a good education and a career? Careers were not talked about in their culture.
My point was in showing the difference between the two cultures and how these impoverished South East Asian communities knew the importance of connecting the dots for their kids.

Of course there were some accomplished black students, but only a few compared to the Asians.
Maybe it has changed for the better now -- that was in the eighties. The point I was making was comparing the differences in the culture, and how the black community was failing these kids. Stop blaming the whites or racism.

You are also wrong that smart black kids were not looked down upon by their peers as " trying to be white."
Just the other day there was a post from a black woman here who stated she went through that experience but rose above it. You were lucky not to have experienced that -- I saw it first hand with my students.

But you are right about fourth generation welfare -- I had kids who were living with their grandparents who were on welfare, and so were their parents, so does that make third generation welfare? Not sure how that's figured.

 
Old 05-20-2015, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Aztlan
2,686 posts, read 1,764,050 times
Reputation: 1282
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackAmerican View Post
Yep, and don't forget about the numerous contributions our people made to science and technology. Our inventions, etc.
Why is skin color relevant when talking about an inventor? Do y'all have some kind of inferiority complex that makes you say "That inventor was black, his contribution makes us look good"? I certainly don't go around saying "Thomas Edison was white, yay white race!"
 
Old 05-20-2015, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Japan
15,292 posts, read 7,728,768 times
Reputation: 10006
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBlackAmerican View Post
Yep, and don't forget about the numerous contributions our people made to science and technology. Our inventions, etc.
If I were black I would cringe at the mention of "black inventors". Even as a white guy I feel a little embarassed for all the blacks who have been duped into believing that their people invented elevators, traffic lights, fountain pens, etc.. Every single claim is nonsense.

https://www.toqonline.com/blog/black-invention-myths/
 
Old 05-21-2015, 05:31 AM
 
4,006 posts, read 6,021,750 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flashes1 View Post
I think he's referring to the blacks who give their kids "ghetto" names. And I agree with him. It would be very difficult to overcome the stigma of a "ghetto" name in certain vocations...business, legal, banking, etc. Just hard to take some seriously with a stupid sounding name.

And he feels Asians are superior to blacks not for genetic reasons, but because Asians out produce blacks in the USA. But that's cultural mainly due to Asian parents emphasizing education and work ethic. For example, Asian kids don't look down on kids who succeed in school----a black kid doing well in school is called an Uncle Tom by his black friends. VERY VERY SAD
You're spot on.
When black teen girls have a baby and think it's cool to give that baby some unique name that no one can spell, it stigmatizes that child for a really long time. Right or wrong, it is what it is.

The other problem is that you have a culture of govt dependency in some black communities where kids are taught that you are a victim, that society is set up against you, and that the govt is there to take care of you, so why strive to succeed?
 
Old 05-21-2015, 05:32 AM
 
4,006 posts, read 6,021,750 times
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I think a better comparison of work ethic is to compare blacks with Hispanics.
 
Old 05-21-2015, 08:23 AM
 
16,212 posts, read 10,778,077 times
Reputation: 8442
Quote:
Originally Posted by mountainrose View Post
You WISH I were lying.
I am sure there must have been some people in their neighborhoods who had jobs, but these kids' PERCEPTION was that no one they knew worked, and so what was the point of trying to connect the dots between a good education and a career? Careers were not talked about in their culture.
My point was in showing the difference between the two cultures and how these impoverished South East Asian communities knew the importance of connecting the dots for their kids.

Of course there were some accomplished black students, but only a few compared to the Asians.
Maybe it has changed for the better now -- that was in the eighties. The point I was making was comparing the differences in the culture, and how the black community was failing these kids. Stop blaming the whites or racism.

You are also wrong that smart black kids were not looked down upon by their peers as " trying to be white."
Just the other day there was a post from a black woman here who stated she went through that experience but rose above it. You were lucky not to have experienced that -- I saw it first hand with my students.

But you are right about fourth generation welfare -- I had kids who were living with their grandparents who were on welfare, and so were their parents, so does that make third generation welfare? Not sure how that's figured.
Nah, I don't wish.

I know it for a fact that you are lying.

Now you change your previous assertion that the kids didn't know anyone who had jobs to that their "perception" was no one had a job. How do you know what anyone else perceives? It is ludicrous to believe that you do as you are not inside the minds of others unless you have some sort of psychic ability.

You also changed from the assertion that none of the black students were high performing and now you say there were "some accomplished black students." Give me a break.

I was a smart black kid in the 80s. I know that all smart kids and all kids period receive some sort of taunting and bullying. That is normal, but for you to insinuate that it is more prominent amongst black students is again, ludicrous and ridiculous. I went to school with Asians, mostly Vietnamese and Laosians and they were also taunted and bullied.

You also changed your assertion about 4th generational welfare. And I don't believe you are telling the truth about that either in regards to grandparents being on welfare. I will give it to you though that the grandparents probably did get food stamps and social security. A large amount of elderly people are on food assistance or live in public housing but for the majority of their lives, black Americans, like all Americans worked and paid into the system and when they are older, due to age or disability they collect benefts.


I will mention though that like the professor, you as an educator having negative views of students based on skin color or ethnicity is a major issue within our educational system today.

And since this is a political forum, I will mention that both the conservative and liberal educators have equally prejudicial tendencies.

Being that I am now a parent of black children, I have seen first hand how many educators, even very nice teachers have tried to pigeonhole my own kids and put a label on them as being in a certain way or more prone to certain behaviors. I am not one who blames this sort of thing on race to their face even though in my heart, I know that it more than likely is an issue being I had similar circumstances with teachers who after telling me I "talked like a white person" or had a "typical white girl name" went on and on about how "different" I was from other black kids. When really I wasn't all that different from them. Practically every black kid I knew and know now were very intelligent. They just had a 'f' you attitude about teachers who didn't respect or care about them and unlike me, were more verbal about it. My own son told me when we moved recently to a new state and in a new school that is predominantly white that he didn't feel that his teachers cared about him at all at his new school (and just FYI, his old teachers were predominantly white as well so I don't think that all white teachers have this sort of attitude about their students). So I had to inform him that even if they don't care, he still has to do well and he has. Kids pick up on attitudes and presumptions teachers have about them and they will act like you allow them to act. Just like you generalize those black students, they will do the same to you and just not give a crap about school at all. Even though it is a disservice to them to feel this way, as a smart black student in the 80s, I saw it happen often with teachers who had a misbehaving black student do something and then the teacher never stopped referencing that incident, which in turn riled up the student or students against the teacher and it caused those students to stop caring about school. Many studies have even been done on the detrimental effects that racial prejudices with educators have on their charges whereas a white or Asian student misbehaving is not punished as harshly as a black child. Luckily many of the black kids I knew who left school over issues like this, later on got a GED and went to college and are now doing well for themselves.
 
Old 05-21-2015, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Aztlan
2,686 posts, read 1,764,050 times
Reputation: 1282
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I will mention though that like the professor, you as an educator having negative views of students based on skin color or ethnicity is a major issue within our educational system today.
.
Is it OK for a Black or Hispanic professor to have a negative View of a White student?
 
Old 05-21-2015, 01:20 PM
 
56,990 posts, read 35,095,587 times
Reputation: 18824
As i said on another thread, this pitting Asians against blacks is deliberate and lame. If you have criticisms of the black community, those criticisms can and should more than stand on their own without trying to bring another group into it.

Most Asians i know resent these comparisons and debates, and they're becoming more vocal about it. They realize and understand the profound differences in the black and Asian struggles in this country.

This is one of the best blog pieces on this topic, and he uses statistics to pretty much render the black vs Asian debate a total absurdity.

The Manipulation Factor: An Asian American Take on O’Reilly, Race, and Asian Americans | Race Files

This is one of the best parts of the piece:

Quote:
So, as one Asian American, I’d like to set the record straight about Asians.

But, first, let’s untwist some of the ridiculous anti-black tropes here. In numerous studies, it has been found that Black people engage in drug abuse no more than, and maybe even less than whites do. And, as whites comprise a much larger percentage of the population, white people constitute the largest group of consumers of illegal drugs, even while being imprisoned for that crime at a much lower rate. So, given the relatively high incomes and low rates of unemployment among whites, it is simply illogical to suggest that Black poverty is the result of drug abuse.

And, Mr. O’Reilly’s claims that a lack of education is a prime contributor to Black unemployment also fails to pass the smell test. A study by the Center for Economic and Policy Research shows that the rate of unemployment of Black college graduates between the ages of 22 and 27 in 2013 was 12.4%, more than twice that of their non-Black peers (5.6%). That made the unemployment rate among Black college graduates in 2013 higher than the current overall Black unemployment rate as cited by O’Reilly (11.4%).
So much for lack of education and blacks not valuing education being the sole reason for black unemployment rates.

Then there's this:

Quote:
In another study, white men with recent criminal histories were found to be far more likely to receive calls on job resumes than similarly qualified black men with no criminal record at all. And a Young Invincibles study that finds that Black college graduates have the same likelihood of finding a job as a white high school drop out. If it’s not white privilege that is driving these results, are we to assume that dropping out of high school or committing crimes is what gives the whites in these studies an edge over Black college graduates?
Explain THIS Conservatives. I thought you guys said that if blacks would just avoid crime and get educated, they won't experience any real racism....that they'd be treated with the same respect as whites relative to employment opportunities? Really?

How about this one:

Quote:
First, the claim that high median Asian family incomes is proof of a lack of white privilege is just wrong. The reality is that higher median family incomes among Asians is based on at least two factors: 1) Asian families include more wage earners, and 2) Asian Americans tend to be clustered in cities where median incomes are higher overall. The reality is that even with the wage per hour edge of being concentrated in high cost of living, high wage cities, per capita income among Asians is lower than for whites, as is family wealth, and the rate of homeownership.

Second, while Asian Americans as a whole are the most highly educated racial group, Asians are the least likely group to be promoted into managerial positions in both the public and private sectors. So while we enjoy a lower rate of unemployment, it may just be because we’ll work for less.
Please explain why Asians, with all that education and unwillingness to complain about racism, why aren't they getting into managerial positions at the same rates as whites OR blacks?

And his point about Asian earning power is spot on. In real dollars, that's simply not true. Asians actually earn less than whites do despite having MORE education.

The excerpt below is very important, because supposedly having an intact family is the magic elixir to American success, and even i'll admit that it's certainly preferable to single parent family status. But it's not the panacea that it's made out to be. Explain this if it is:

Quote:
Third, the Asian American experience demonstrates that the so-called “intact” family with two-parents at home is not by itself a causative factor in determining “success.” Asian Americans’ supposed edge in this area remains consistent across Asian ethnicities in the U.S. So it’s true of Japanese Americans, who, as an ethnic group, have among the highest rates of college graduation and per capita incomes among all Americans, and among the Hmong, Laotian, Vietnamese, and Cambodian Asian ethnic minorities who all exceed the national average rate of adults without high school diplomas of 19.6%, with the Hmong and Cambodians on the extreme end of disadvantage at 59.6% and 53.3%. And, these same groups are among the most impoverished Americans, with Hmong average per capita income from 2007-09 being just $10,949, and the most successful of the Asian groups most affected by poverty that I’ve listed here, the Vietnamese, at just $21, 542.
So really, the black vs Asian comparison simply isn't apropos here...it doesn't fit and makes no sense. Nevermind that the historical differences alone make the comparison absurd.

The black community has a wing that's extremely dysfunctional, and it's certainly dysfunctional enough to criticize it on its own standing without trying to pit blacks against other so called "model minority" ethnic groups that don't share our unique history in this country.
 
Old 05-21-2015, 02:42 PM
Status: "114 N/A" (set 13 hours ago)
 
12,915 posts, read 13,599,791 times
Reputation: 9668
I’m surprised that a person who is paid good money in academia would bother to write a paper and put his name on it that could be so easily challenged.

His next scholarly endeavor will be “Everyone knows lions will eat your livestock except people whose livestock gets eaten by lions.” In this metaphor Asians have better fences around their livestock. People who are here by choice do better. How many Americans go to Guatemala to live on $2.00 a day?

What the matter hasn't Thomas Sowell written anything lately?
 
Old 05-21-2015, 07:03 PM
 
56,990 posts, read 35,095,587 times
Reputation: 18824
Quote:
Originally Posted by lenniel View Post
You're spot on.
When black teen girls have a baby and think it's cool to give that baby some unique name that no one can spell, it stigmatizes that child for a really long time. Right or wrong, it is what it is.

The other problem is that you have a culture of govt dependency in some black communities where kids are taught that you are a victim, that society is set up against you, and that the govt is there to take care of you, so why strive to succeed?
Complete bull.
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