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Old 05-29-2015, 09:13 PM
 
20,611 posts, read 13,021,541 times
Reputation: 5905

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Quote:
Originally Posted by natalie469 View Post
I don't care about other countries, I care about mine. We did not have to slaughter native americans to take control, we could have lived peacefully. Thomas jefferson did not have to isolate them with his indian removal act.
You're talking about how things are done in 2015, not 200 years ago. Back then it WAS the stronger against the weaker, kinda like what China's TRYING to pull in the "China" Sea. Too; the American Indians didn't play well with other tribes, so it wasn't just a Hispanic, French or English thing.
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Old 05-29-2015, 09:34 PM
 
Location: Arizona
13,090 posts, read 7,819,838 times
Reputation: 6971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packard fan View Post
You're talking about how things are done in 2015, not 200 years ago. Back then it WAS the stronger against the weaker, kinda like what China's TRYING to pull in the "China" Sea. Too; the American Indians didn't play well with other tribes, so it wasn't just a Hispanic, French or English thing.
You keep repeating that over and over and it just isn't true at all. Some tribes had differences and formed regular raiding parties to steal each others women and stores but no tribe ever tried to annihilate the other until the Euros pushed then westward into other tribes homelands.
Also the tribes in the Northeast had a Democratic Confederacy that existed since 1100 AD and still holds today.
Not exactly the picture of brutal savages exterminating each other at every opportunity.

If you're going to repeat that crap, then provide some substantial links to support that claim. I assure you I have irrefutable links to support exactly the opposite from what you claim.
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Old 05-29-2015, 09:42 PM
 
2,347 posts, read 953,685 times
Reputation: 1792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Motion View Post
How this country came about.
It's certainly not all rosey, but It is our history. Looking back on it, we should be proud of how far we've come.

I'm not the slightest bit ashamed, even though I know my ancestors were the slaves.
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Old 05-30-2015, 06:56 AM
 
37,026 posts, read 16,417,015 times
Reputation: 9963
Quote:
Originally Posted by natalie469 View Post
I don't care about other countries, I care about mine. We did not have to slaughter native americans to take control, we could have lived peacefully. Thomas jefferson did not have to isolate them with his indian removal act.
Geez, get your head out of the past. Those people are all dead now. The so-called natives were killing each other over territory and killing innocent settlers including women and children also who just wanted a peaceful life in the new world. The Europeans weren't any worse than they were. That's how things were done back then.
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:19 AM
 
Location: USA
4,801 posts, read 4,244,698 times
Reputation: 2850
Giving such reverence to the previous leaders of our country: 1.) ignores the blatant fact that they were flawed human beings like the rest of us, and 2.) leaves one with a strong impression that the best days of the USA have came and went.

We should celebrate what our country has done well AND criticize our shortcomings. More importantly, we should focus on the present and continuously strive for improvement.
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:23 AM
 
70 posts, read 54,146 times
Reputation: 196
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tall Traveler View Post
Yes I'm damn proud. We have some skeletons in our closet just like every other country but we have done more good to advance the world than any other country.
I love visiting the USA. The people are genuinely some of the friendliest in the world, the normal public that is, I'll be in Chicago for a few days in July and then back to Florida for the gazillionth time In October and I doubt more than two years will ever pass in my entire lifetime without me visiting the place but this kind of thing does make me smile.

Whilst the great civilizations of history were introducing and Pioneering Engineering, Medicine, Mathematics, Languages, Science etc etc you were giving us the Big Mac.

Of course I jest and in the last century or so you have picked up the baton in several fields and advanced several of those fields but it's absolutely ignorant to make the claim you have and it's a bit of a recurring theme with Americans.

I'm really as far from being anti USA as you could ever find, I always get on well with Americans and like I say I do love the country but I think your School History depts. do you a bit of disservice.
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Old 05-30-2015, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
8,090 posts, read 4,720,747 times
Reputation: 2877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
Jesus dude! Stop getting your WW 2 facts from WIKIPEDIA. The U.S. hadn't fully developed an Atomic bomb when Germany surrendered on May 7th 1945 and when the Allies were dividing Europe in Yalta was February of 1945.......U.S. experimented on the A BOMB on Japan on August 1945.

What does invading a defeated Germany on the western front has to do with the Red Army?.....what part of the Red Army had 3 times the size of the western allies army combine you don't get?
First, you're wrong. The "Western front" had as many as 5.4 million Canadians, Americans, British, and French fighting. The "Eastern front" was about 6.4 million Soviets. Secondly, the Red Army was only as large was it was because the United States(and Britain) gave it massive amounts of supplies. In fact, the United States provided about as many supplies to the Soviet Army as we did for our own troops(17.5 million pounds to the USSR, vs 22 million for ourselves in roughly the same time-frame).

Lend-Lease - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western..._(World_War_II)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern..._(World_War_II)


Thirdly, the Soviets effectively had no Air force, and no Navy. And their Army was not comparable to the US Army(or the German Army), troop-for-troop. So a Soviet Army of six million wasn't equivalent to a US or Germany Army of six million.

On top of that, the Soviets were badly stretched on supplies, and they moved those supplies mostly with the ~430,000 trucks America gave to them. The Soviets did not have the capacity to replace the trucks and the rail cars and locomotives that they used for their supplies. Because they had turned all of their industry over to pretty much only making tanks.

Which is why George Patton said, "I understand the situation. Their (the Soviet) supply system is inadequate to maintain them in a serious action such as I could put to them. They have chickens in the coop and cattle on the hoof -- that's their supply system. They could probably maintain themselves in the type of fighting I could give them for five days. After that it would make no difference how many million men they have, and if you wanted Moscow I could give it to you. They lived on the land coming down. There is insufficient left for them to maintain themselves going back. Let's not give them time to build up their supplies. If we do, then . . . we have had a victory over the Germans and disarmed them, but we have failed in the liberation of Europe; we have lost the war!"

Patton On Communism And The Khazar Jews

The key phrase here is "They lived on the land coming down". This is true, and without Western food supplies, the Soviets(who had severe food shortages the entire war), simply wouldn't have had the supplies to last any length of time.


And had we never gave them all those ~17.5 million pounds of supplies to begin with, we could have rolled over them without any effort at all.

So yes, I agree with George Patton, "We have had a victory over the Germans and disarmed them, but we have failed in the liberation of Europe; we have lost the war!"


Anyone who is actually proud of the outcome of WWII, is completely delusional. Nor was our entry into WWII based on any sort of "good will" towards anyone.

To the extent that we think it was "The Good War". It is based almost entirely on this mythology whereby Hitler and the Germans were the epitome of all evil through all time. This is why the myth of the holocaust was created(or at least badly exaggerated), to give us a justification for the war(after the fact) and a justification for denazification.

What no one seems to want to talk about, is that, without the holohoax, Hitler was far less of a bad guy than Stalin. And the war effectively gave Stalin all of Eastern Europe(and nearly cast the entire continent under communism).

I mean, Hitler's Germany was far more "free" than Stalin's Russia. No one was voluntary moving to the Soviet Union, but the Germans from every country in Europe were flocking to Hitler. In fact, WWII was fought over a city called "Danzig", which was 95% German, situated in territory given to Poland after WWI, and the Germans in Danzig were basically begging to be returned to Germany.

Free City of Danzig - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Did Hitler Want War?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
we had the NUKES in February of 1945 to nuke half of Europe and beat the Red Army because you say so.
Hitler killed himself on April 30th, and Germany surrendered on May 9th. We tested the first nuke two months later, and nuked Japan less than three months later on August 6th. And we wouldn't have needed to nuke half of Europe. Our bombers could have nuked Russian cities pretty easily.

The planes that nuked Japan, were flown out of "Tinian" just north of Guam. It was about 1600 miles from Tinian to Hiroshima.

https://www.awesomestories.com/asset...a-and-Nagasaki

To put that in perspective. That is close to the same distance from London to Moscow(a little over 1700 miles).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
more wikipedia.....why bother in getting a real education in history, you have wikipedia!
Look, I already know the history. I've known it for many years, going back to the time when I would leave the History Channel on 24/7(at the time it was basically the WWII channel).

I was posting the wikipedia links because I don't like to just blabber without something to back up what I have to say. If the wiki articles are incorrect, please tell me where they are incorrect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hellion1999 View Post
Hitler only lasted 12 years but if he would have stayed in power longer and had nukes of course he would have had the same record as Stalin or worse.
What evidence is there to back up such a claim?

Let me explain something important, what we learned about the so-called crimes of both Hitler and Stalin are largely a lie, or at least highly exaggerated.

Other than in certain circumstances, Stalin really didn't murder people like people imagine. The process of "collectivizing the farms" led to some food production problems, which led to a mass famine. The purges were originally less about killing people, and more about removing people who weren't loyal to Stalin from high-ranking positions(especially in the military).

To the extent that Stalin actually was a tyrant, it was simply because Stalin was all about rapid industrialization and collectivization, and anyone that stood in the way of those goals became an "enemy of the state". It was the ultimate example of "Sacrifice the few for the good of the many".

In most cases, enemies of the state weren't killed, but rather just sent to the "Gulag" Archipelago. Where they would be "reeducated through hard labor". The death rate in many of these camps was pretty high, especially in times where there were food shortages(which was almost all the time prior and during WWII). Because feeding these "criminals" was less of a priority than feeding either the Army or civilians(who were dying by the millions from starvation during WWII).


In short, Stalin didn't really care if people died by the millions if they were standing in the way of his goal of his Utopian state. Of course, the Soviet system effectively created a slave society, of which many/most were trying to escape.


In regards to Hitler. Did he commit crimes? Absolutely, but everyone committed crimes during WWII. You don't think the firebombing of Dresden, Hamburg, and Tokyo, then the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't War crimes? Do you think putting Japanese civilians into internment camps wasn't a war crime? I mean, if the Iraqi military started rounding up all the Sunnis and throwing them into internment camps, do you think we would be OK with it?


With that said, I hate to sound like a holocaust denier. But I have to admit, most of the holocaust story simply can't be true. Which is exactly why you aren't allowed to talk about it. I am personally of a similar mindset as David Cole(a Jew). I do not believe that there was a "mass extermination policy" for the Jews. They were definitely mistreated, they were thrown in ghettos, they were thrown in camps, many died of disease(especially towards the end of the war), and many were shot from reprisals or other violence. But it doesn't really make sense to say that there was a mass extermination policy for the Jews, when the Germans had hundreds of thousands of Jews at the end of the war in their custody who they didn't kill. I mean, if the plan was to just kill all the Jews. Not only did they not kill them all, but they even brought the ones in the camps in Poland back to Germany as the Soviets were closing in. It would have been far easier to just kill them.


Once you remove the holocaust myth, what are Hitler's "crimes"? That he wanted to kick all non-Germans out of Germany? That he was a racist? That he was willing to go to war to take back the territories taken from Germany at the end of WWI? Including Danzig, which was 95% German and wanted to be returned to Germany. And that he went to war against the Soviet Union. The same Soviet Union which literally intended to take over the entire world. And whose communists nearly took over Germany after WWI(go read about it).


Don't you ever find it strange that pretty much every German loved Hitler, that not only were people not fleeing from Germany(unlike the Soviet Union), but people from the German diaspora were begging to be returned to Germany? So much so that even after WWII was over, they had to use extensive propaganda, and pass a variety of laws to "Denazify Germany". Because the people had loved Hitler and the Nazis so much. And more than a million Russian volunteers were fighting with the German Army against the Soviet Union(Russian Liberation Army).

I am glad Hitler lost the war. But almost all of Hitler's so-called crimes were and still are just "war propaganda". To the extent that these things still exist, it is because they have been so useful(especially for the establishment and perpetuation of Israel). As well as the reparations Germany was forced to pay after WWII(and the denazification efforts).

Lets understand, at the conclusion of WWII, every single camp in the German system was claimed to have "gas chambers". All the camps that fell into Western hands(and thus could be inspected by the Western Allies), were proven to neither have gas chambers, nor were they ever used to kill anyone. Only the camps in the Soviet Union are still claimed to have killed pretty much anyone(disease is a separate issue). The most infamous of which is "Auschwitz". But, there is absolutely no evidence that there were ever gas chambers at Auschwitz.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmYFpiCo1-g

Don't fall for the lies. Trust me, they all lie to you, all the time. Find as many sources as you possible can, and decide for yourself. And let me say, governments have the most incentive to lie to you, because they benefit the most from lying.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDw-zFFhFgc
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Old 05-30-2015, 09:18 AM
 
2,014 posts, read 1,255,692 times
Reputation: 1921
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
To the extent that we think it was "The Good War". It is based almost entirely on this mythology whereby Hitler and the Germans were the epitome of all evil through all time. This is why the myth of the holocaust was created(or at least badly exaggerated), to give us a justification for the war(after the fact) and a justification for denazification.
You had a lot of pretty good information in this post but you blew it all away with this particular line which makes everything else you say worthless. Anyone who actually believes this is literally beyond the pale.
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Old 05-30-2015, 01:35 PM
 
9,984 posts, read 6,771,963 times
Reputation: 5613
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wanderer0101 View Post
You had a lot of pretty good information in this post but you blew it all away with this particular line which makes everything else you say worthless. Anyone who actually believes this is literally beyond the pale.
Not any more. There's still information coming out. If you look up "Nick Kollerstrom", British
Professor, you'll see that his latest book exposes the British Intelligence records of recordings
concerning what was happening at the camps. The British broke the code, well guess what.
Zyklon-B was used as a typhus deterrent, as it was on the Germans themselves.
More people are breaking out of the spell of lies. It's not a comfortable subject. It's really
one of those those things where if your mind is not open to reconsidering the facts, then
you'll never understand the truth. Of course, many people are either too invested in it
financially or emotionally to have open minds about the subject.
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Old 05-30-2015, 08:48 PM
 
Location: Minneapolis, MN
6,072 posts, read 3,397,513 times
Reputation: 7715
Quote:
Originally Posted by MX City visiting View Post
Not at all; I dislike most of the Constitution, history of slavery and their treatment, the Protestant work ethic, birth of Republicans, our two-party political system, lack of labor laws, not using the metric system, and being behind other 1st world nation in many things.
Republicans sought the abolition of slavery, so ponder on that. I dunno what you mean about "no labour laws" considering we have labour laws. Otherwise there wouldn't even be a minimum wage lol You're so full of it. It's one thing if you wanna criticise our labour laws but at least admit we have some. Wanna know about lack of labour laws, check out southeast Asia. Not using the metric system? How does that affect the overall quality of life? I personally prefer the imperial system myself, and I was born in a country that uses metric, and I don't care for it. Fahrenheit is a perfect temperature scale system. I love that it groups temperatures in tens, and I love that it pisses off snobby foreigners who think the metric system is the end all system

For the record, politically speaking I am independent, though a bit more liberal than conservative. I'm also not exactly sure what you mean by "the Protestant work ethic" so if you may please clarify on that. Yes, our nation is too flawed, however a lot of what people call flaws, aren't really. Using MPHs or KPHs isn't any better or worse than speaking English or French. Different systems/languages, that's it. Not all Republicans are bad, either. You need a bit of conservativism as well as a bit of liberalism for things to work out.
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