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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
Of course, they want foreigners out of their country. However, considering the consequences, if posed to them, I believe the vote would be different.
Wait a minute, yoiu stated: "If you'll talk to our soldiers who have been there, those without an agenda, you'll realize that most Iraqis do welcome them." and now you state they want foreigners out of the country. So, they're welcomed but the Iraqis want them out?
And believing the vote would be different is in no way the equivalent of knowing it to be fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
We're not in a position to invade Saudi Arabia and remove their leaders. Since we have done so in Iraq, it is our responsibility to ensure this suppression doesn't occur.
Why? Saudi Arabia oppresses women as badly as Iraq ever did AND is ruled by much more extreme Islamic Fundamentalists than Iraq was. And five years after the end of major combat in Iraq the responsibility is Maliki's to stop suckling at America's $$$ teat and start acting like the leader he claimed to be, and it's GWB's responsibility to make that happen ASAP, something he is so far failing miserably at.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amaznjohn
No, we're not the world's police, but simply challenged with protecting our national interests. We didn't invade Iraq because it was the most imminent threat. We invaded because Saddam didn't provide any proof that he had dismantled his weapons and/or his weapons programs, as he promised and even suspiciously continued to kick the inspectors out of his country, again which he agreed to allow. We couldn't take the chance that he would provide these weapons to terrorist organization,i.e. Hamas, Hezbollah, to whom he had ties.
It was clearly the CinC's responsibility to verify the alleged conditions for war, the idea of believing anything from Saddam as cause for/against war is ludicrous. And just HOW does it make any sense at all to NOT focus the bulk of our attention on the most imminent threat?
Are you DENYING that innocent people are killed by the US military? Why is the only anwer one seems to get, oh, but they are doing it, too? Duh. I should try that and start speeding, if a cop stops me, I can say "they are doing it, too", I do not think that one will fly. And comparing our military to Al Qaeda, well you did that, not me. But it speaks volumes.
Absolutly Horrible that some will deny and pretend this doesn't happen or say things such as" well its war".
So sad what we have become.
Yes, well -- it IS a kind of "war." And it's an ugly one -- involving an enemy whose tactics are designed to maximize civilian casualties and create the maximum amount of suffering.
Or do you deny that? Are you one of those who pretends to assign the purest of motives to the murderers and religious fanatics who, for example, use retarded women as bomb-carriers to massacre children at pet fairs, while describing our own soldiers -- our brothers and sisters, our sons and daughters -- as little more than bloodthirsty criminals?
There is a hypocritical and mendacious strain at work throughout this thread, which sees nothing wrong with painting our entire armed forces as homocidal killers, while absolving from blame the people responsible for the wanton slaughter of civilians; people who engage in such atrocities as a planned, calculated strategy.
Those who vindictively tally the deaths of our troops and cheer on their enemies are guilty of prolonging this criminal "war", through the encouragement they give those enemies -- who are the actual murderers of the civilians in Iraq. Through their studied inattention to our successes and their fitful highlighting and demagoguing of the tragedies which beset this unhappy place, they are complicit in the senseless deaths which they profess to find so shocking.
I only wish that the people for whom Abu Ghraib and Fallujah have become symbolic of our armed forces could experience for a moment the tremendous responsibility which we place on our men and women in Iraq and elsewhere around the world to show courage in the face of an implacable and cruel enemy while retaining their compassion and humanity for the civilians who, too often, are used by that enemy as a shield.
Somehow, though, I don't think they experience much of anything, aside from contempt for their fellow Americans and hatred for the country which keeps them safe and permits them to indulge their absurd fantasies.
Before people tried to laugh at the death tallies in Iraq as being liberal propaganda.
Now as more and more reputable polling organizations are calculating the deaths in the hundreds of thousands or even over a million that has died down somewhat.
I have not seen anyone in any thread excuse the Evil of the people that blow other people up and commit atrocities over there.
That does not change the fact that yes a minority segment of our troops have raped and killed innocent people over there.
Also does not change the fact that the invasion is a cause of these deaths... no matter who killed the people, and our government by disbanding the Iraqi army and power structure opened up the vaccuum to allow this to happen. Our government opened up the Pandora's Box that was just held shut by Saddam's iron rule. Many of these Evil terrorists followed us into the country to wreak havoc.
You can argue whether the War was justified initially or not, that does not change the result...which directly correlates due to the inept strategic planning of the administration. I think most can agree about this. Iraq may still end up stabilizing in the long run, not a big consolation to those living through it now.
I think our troops are doing an incredible job at policing various factions that hate each other, and the minority that directly kill innocent people can be if not excused understood...they are being sent over for multiple tours and are under incredible stress, with no clear mission strategy.
Again, if the enemy purposefully place themselves in civilian areas or hide among civilians there will be civilian deaths.
But to attribute those deaths to the USA is backwards thinking,the enemy caused the deaths.
Also this poll is a calculation and relies of course upon nothing more than what people say,no hard evidence.
Iraq body count uses actual deaths and puts the number as below 100,000.
And what needs to be remembered is the vast number of these civilian deaths are commited by the enemy.
In the link provided by Katz a mass grave with over 200 bodies was found,killed by Al Qaeda....who is responsible fo rthose deaths?
Again, none of those deaths would have happened - if the invasion was not so poorly executed.
I would assume not every body has been counted in Iraq. I feel pretty safe based on the polling that has been conducted believing that the numbers are at least in the hundreds of thousands.
And saying they were killed by "the enemy" is a little simplistic. Some were killed by foreign al qaeda, many more were killed in the Shiite -Sunni religious faction wars that went on for years, some were killed by Americans in the inital Shock and Awe bombings and subsequently. Blackwater mercenaries I am sure did their share.
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