Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-20-2015, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,260,371 times
Reputation: 15285

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnTrips View Post
This thread could benefit from a couple of pertinent facts:

1 -- the embargo was not imposed because of an American temper tantrum. It was the result of the Castro regime nationalizing American owned property, mostly that of American oil companies. Whether or not you like oil companies, it was outright theft.

2 -- if Cuba has remained in the Stone Age its not because of the Embargo. Europeans and other Latin nations have been trading with Cuba for quite awhile. The Mexicans in particular have sunk hundreds of millions into Cuba.

3 -- in 2000, Bill Clinton relaxed the embargo to allow sales of medicine and food to Cuba. Cuba initially refused to accept the accommodation. Thereafter, the U.S. became (and remains? not sure) the largest exporter of agricultural goods to Cuba.
^^^^

This
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-20-2015, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Sarasota, FL
2,681 posts, read 2,167,376 times
Reputation: 5165
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
And all of the joy expressed about traveling to Cuba for vacations would be tempered by the realization that Cubans can never visit our country, at the risk of arrest and imprisonment by the Castro regime, if the posters expressing such happiness would reflect on the hypocrisy of enjoying onesself among what amounts to an island of political prisoners. But that would require the ability to discern the difference between right and wrong...
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 03:30 PM
 
Location: On a Long Island in NY
7,801 posts, read 10,074,946 times
Reputation: 7366
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapnTrips View Post
This thread could benefit from a couple of pertinent facts:

1 -- the embargo was not imposed because of an American temper tantrum. It was the result of the Castro regime nationalizing American owned property, mostly that of American oil companies. Whether or not you like oil companies, it was outright theft.

2 -- if Cuba has remained in the Stone Age its not because of the Embargo. Europeans and other Latin nations have been trading with Cuba for quite awhile. The Mexicans in particular have sunk hundreds of millions into Cuba.

3 -- in 2000, Bill Clinton relaxed the embargo to allow sales of medicine and food to Cuba. Cuba initially refused to accept the accommodation. Thereafter, the U.S. became (and remains? not sure) the largest exporter of agricultural goods to Cuba.


Well said, especially on #2. Cuba's problem isent the embargo ... it's the same problem that the rest of Latin America has: socialism with a heavy dose of endless anti-American rhetoric. Not to mention that Cuba illegally seized private property from Americans.

The Castro/PCC regime was on it's last legs, in December '14 we were maybe 2-3 years away from the downfall of the PCC regime. Now we gave them a lifeline, we are making them look legitimate. What message do you think this sends to people in Cuba who are yearning for free and fair elections and political parties other than the PCC?

We could have waited till Raul croaked and then sailed into Havana and took over.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 03:37 PM
 
Location: San Marcos, CA
674 posts, read 607,736 times
Reputation: 792
This is one of those hard cases.

I'm not sure what the right course of action is.

When I think of a similar situation, I think of how Vietnam managed to open itself up to the outside world, and its government is much kinder than how it was in, say, the 1950s. (For those who didn't learn this in school, North Vietnam in the 1950s was a land of state executions of innocent people, death camps, and invasions of foreign lands. Thus, the bar is set pretty low.) Opening up relations with Vietnam has helped the people there in a lot of ways.

However, is this the best way to get rid of the Communists in the long run? Will Vietnam turn into the next China but without the international clout? By that, I mean having a decent market economy but with a lot of social restrictions. That makes for a livable, if scary and often corrupt, system. It remains to be seen how stable Chinese-style modern governance is and if it works on a smaller scale.

Basically, though, Vietnam got a bit better when the Soviets went away. Everything changed. It's not governed by classical death camp Communism anymore, at least not to the same degree. (You still have to watch what you say to avoid jail.)


How does the fall of the major Communist allies affect Cuba? Will they try to become their own sort of thing? Will they try to imitate China, and if they do, will it work? Will Communism die when the zombie corpses running the show finally kick off?


I hope they get rid of Communism altogether, and I hope the normalization of relations can possibly lead to that. We'll see.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 03:58 PM
 
46,841 posts, read 25,785,504 times
Reputation: 29322
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloforLife View Post
53 years of no progress and you want more.
It's like betting on the Washington Generals - they're due!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 04:12 PM
 
46,841 posts, read 25,785,504 times
Reputation: 29322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
...mocking American fears of Cuba (which did in fact obtain nuclear weapons and begged the Russians to let them use them)...
They obtained weapons but weren't free to decide whether to use them? That's an interesting definition of "obtain".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 04:14 PM
 
Location: Eastern UP of Michigan
1,204 posts, read 868,631 times
Reputation: 1292
Gee--- Hope we do right by this as we may have made it more difficult for Putin and friends or the Chinese to move in.

Might be somewhat assuring to know that 90 miles off our coast is an hemispheric ally rather than a potential threat.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Sarasota, FL
2,681 posts, read 2,167,376 times
Reputation: 5165
Quote:
Originally Posted by WIHS2006 View Post
. . . it's the same problem that the rest of Latin America has: socialism with a heavy dose of endless anti-American rhetoric.
Not to mention an unfortunate tendency to accept authoritarian leaders. It has been said that this results from the early influence of the Catholic Church. Whether this is true, I don't know, but the tendency is definitely there.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 05:18 PM
 
Location: Near Manito
20,170 posts, read 24,260,371 times
Reputation: 15285
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA View Post
They obtained weapons but weren't free to decide whether to use them? That's an interesting definition of "obtain".
Interesting and accurate. The Cubans had the missiles, manned the launchers. The Russians had the final call on using them against the USA, which would have meant of course the end of the USSR.

Give Kruschev credit for not being as much of a homocidal murderer as Castro.

But wait. Castro is still there, vegetating. And his brother Raul gets to wear the fake combat fatigues and scream on the radio. These are the nuts, remember, who wanted to nuke us.

Now...why is it again we want to let them sell us panatellas and invite us into their cathouses?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2015, 05:35 PM
 
57,022 posts, read 35,054,673 times
Reputation: 18824
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yeledaf View Post
Interesting and accurate. The Cubans had the missiles, manned the launchers. The Russians had the final call on using them against the USA, which would have meant of course the end of the USSR.

Give Kruschev credit for not being as much of a homocidal murderer as Castro.

But wait. Castro is still there, vegetating. And his brother Raul gets to wear the fake combat fatigues and scream on the radio. These are the nuts, remember, who wanted to nuke us.

Now...why is it again we want to let them sell us panatellas and invite us into their cathouses?
Because it's 2015.

And don't forget that we sponsored an attack on Cuba that failed.

Of course they wanted to nuke you. They weren't the only ones either. People tend to dislike bullies.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top