Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Obamacare is the first major step in the creation of a fascist regime.
First, you go on an exchange over the internet and have to type in your social security number. Then you have to provide personal identification plus proof of residency and income -- so now all of your most personal information that identity thieves would love to have is in cyberspace -- available to them forever. This is the culmination of Step One: total loss of control over your life, total loss of privacy.
Now to Step Two: the government gets all of this information, the accuracy of which is vouched for by the Obamacare applicant under penalty of prison and fines if it is not found to be accurate. Then a verification process ensues involving the IRS, the health insurer and the administrators of Obamacare. Because it is so difficult to communicate with a live person through this whole process, there is an operational presumption that the applicant is guilty in all cases in which a question arises. The burden is then on the applicant to prove his innocence. This is the culmination of Step Two: Guilty until proven innocent and the effective denial of due process.
Next to Step Three: If it is determined that the applicant has understated his income, then he ends up with a big tax bill that must be paid at once. If it is not, penalties and interest accrue. And now, in addition to dealing with the bureaucratic nightmare that is the IRS, the applicant is tangled up with the other two bureaucratic nightmares of the Obamacare website and the health insurer. In order to straighten this all out, the applicant must get these bureaucracies -- which he cannot even communicate with himself -- to communicate with each other. This is the culmination of Step Three: the applicant's life, freedom and prosperity are at the mercy of bureaucrats who are basically paid not to care.
The freedom, privacy, security and prosperity of the Obamacare applicant having thus been destroyed -- forever -- he is now a victim of de facto fascism -- the authoritarian and intrusive state -- with no legal recourse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
The government assigns SSNs
All employers require your SSN. All employers report your gross income and withholding to the federal and state governments each quarter.
Business reports their payables to independent contractors based on the contractor's SSN or other income tracking number.
All income earners are required to file an income tax return.
Your SSN is required to open a bank account and to buy insurance, including healthcare, auto, liability, property , renter and life insurance. Insurers link your SSN to your prior claims history and credit data, compiled by independent companies. Your credit data carries more weight as it relates to your premium than your driving record in all but 3 states. Your credit record counts more than a DWI conviction in terms of your auto premium. I digress.
I am insured under my husband's employer's plan. Being curious, I previously went onto the Obamacare exchange to check it out. I was not asked for my income. Based on my SSN the exchange linked to my income history and promptly informed me that I did not qualify for a subsidy. No surprise.
Privacy is an illusion. Credit reporting bureaus and insurers have been tracking us for more than 50 years.
Guess you could strive to become 100% self- sustaining, abandon all utilities and electronics and go off the grid. Even then, there probably is a satellite, somewhere tracking you and can whisk you away to a FEMA camp accessed thru tunnels connected to Walmarts.
You didn't address my points other than to note that we have had no privacy for a long time.
Personally, I'm tired of seeing right wingers alternately whine about the ACA and gloat about its shortcomings. Why can't the Republicans come up with something better if it's so awful? It's been over FIVE YEARS and they have no alternatives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet
They've always had alternatives: Tort reform, insurance company competition across state lines, health care savings accounts.
You might not like those alternatives, but you can't rightly say that they haven't had them.
And why didn't The One (Obama) push for letting Americans buy prescription drugs from overseas where they are much cheaper?
Let's face it: Obamacare was for the insurance and drug companies, not the American people.
It has done little if anything to lower costs, which were the main problem with health care in this country.
Quote:
Originally Posted by middle-aged mom
Congress does not bite the wallets that feed them.
Tort reform is a state issue.
There is no federal law that prevents selling insurance across state lines. Doing so does however, open the door to potential anti- trust issues.
HSA Aacounts exist.
All of which is beside the point of my response.
I was responding to someone who said the Republicans have not presented any alternatives.
I don't care whether you like those alternatives.
And I'd still like to know why Obama didn't push for letting Americans buy prescription drugs from overseas where they are cheaper.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahzzie
Oh god this is funny. It seems like the above is all the repubs can come up with. They know this will do absolutely NOTHING to give everyone access to healthcare.
Everyone had access to free emergency room healthcare prior to Obamacare.
The problem was not people getting treated, it was how it was all to be paid for.
The theory of Obamacare was "Increase the number of people paying for insurance, and that will lower costs."
Hasn't happened. It hasn't happened because the great majority of new enrollees are getting subsidies instead of paying into the system.
That means the taxpayers ultimately pay, or we print more funny money in Washington, D.C.
The solution to rising health care costs is to get the government out of the system. Meaning no more Medicaid and no more Obamacare subsidies.
Anytime the government gets in between a provider and a consumer, costs go up. This is true of higher education, true of housing, and true of healthcare.
Education: The de facto government guarantee to repay student loans destroys any incentive for colleges to lower their costs.
Housing: When Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac guaranteed repayment of home loans, lenders had no incentive to keep their lending standards high. As a result, many more people qualified for a home loan. This artificially increased the demand for housing, which in turn increased housing prices far beyond what the market could normally bear.
Healthcare: If there were no government-paid healthcare, then doctors and hospitals would be forced to charge only what people could afford -- just like any other business.
Look at any hospital bill. They charge about ten times the normal cost -- e.g. q-tips, paper cups, etc. I paid $2,500 for 5 minutes with a doctor, 10 minutes with a nurse, and two IVs.
Get rid of Medicaid and Obamacare subsidies. I don't include Medicare because it is an insurance program that beneficiaries have to have paid into.
Allow people to buy prescription drugs overseas, where they are cheaper.
It's the government that drives up health care costs. The free market would bring them down.
Last edited by dechatelet; 08-05-2015 at 01:00 AM..
All of which is beside the point of my response. I was responding to someone who said the Republicans have not presented any alternatives.
And I'd still like to know why Obama didn't push for letting Americans buy prescription drugs from overseas where they are cheaper.
Everyone had access to free emergency room health care prior to Obamacare. The problem was not people getting treated, it was how it was all to be paid for. The theory of Obamacare was "Increase the number of people paying for insurance, and that will lower costs." Hasn't happened.
Anytime the government gets in between a provider and a consumer, costs go up. This is true of higher education, true of housing, and true of healthcare.
Education: The de facto government guarantee to repay student loans destroys any incentive for colleges to lower their costs.
Housing: When Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac guaranteed repayment of home loans, lenders had no incentive to keep their lending standards high. As a result, many more people qualified for a home loan. This artificially increased the demand for housing, which in turn increased housing prices far beyond what the market could normally bear.
Healthcare: If there were no government-paid healthcare, then doctors and hospitals would be forced to charge only what people could afford -- just like any other business.
Look at any hospital bill. They charge about ten times the normal cost -- e.g. q-tips, paper cups, etc. I paid $2,500 for 5 minutes with a doctor, 10 minutes with a nurse, and two IVs.
Now we have government paid healthcare in the form of Medicaid and Obamacare subsidies. I don't include Medicare because it is an insurance program that beneficiaries have to have paid into.
That was a problem long before Obamacare. I remember seeing news magazine reports on outrageous hospital bills going back to the 1980s. The only way that is ever going to stop is if hospitals can refuse to treat patients who cannot pay, and outside of a few really heartless bastards who wouldn't care if people die on the hospital doorstep, no one wants to see that happen. And you really want to end Medicaid and Medicare on top of that? It would mean anyone out of a job, too young, old or sick to work and not covered by someone else's insurance would just be screwed.
I don't think I would buy prescription medication overseas even if it were an option. What if it's counterfeit or not what it says on the label? What if they're buying the pills from some third-rate factory in China? What if the medication turns out to be dangerous and you can't sue or settle with the provider? At least when you go down to the local pharmacy you know you're getting what you paid for.
Given the amount of angst over what would happen to Republican representatives at the local level if the Supreme Court repealed the ACA and millions of people lost their health insurance, I doubt it will happen even if the next President is Republican. It would be political suicide.
Real nice, you get 200k to move numbers around and since you can pay to get your health care screw everyone else, maybe they can find a charity hospital. I have nothing else to say to you that would not get me banned here
It's not as much as it sounds in 2015.
I still don't get health insurance and have to buy my own for myself and my family; independent contractor.
I still don't get health insurance and have to buy my own for myself and my family; independent contractor.
I work for the second largest railway in the US. Very high paying salaried engineer since I don't belong to the union. Their health care plan sucks anyway. I could go on the company plan but it's pricey. I could go to the exchanges and with my salary and trust fund could easily pay for platinum plated insurance. But I refuse to have deadbeats leech off of me. Since my job pays for physicals for my job, I opted out and go uninsured.
Good plans were ALWAYS available pre ACA and they were ALWAYS accepted by physicians..
Not really making a good argument here
Because you keep on trying to "reinterpret" my argument.
I never said good plans weren't available pre-ACA. I had a good plan pre-ACA. I have a better plan now, and it costs less. And I'm pointing this out because so many people claim that there are no good plans available through the ACA websites. That's untrue. So I think I'm making an excellent argument. One that you've been unable to rebut, which is why you keep on trying to "reinterpret" my argument. If that's all you can do, you might want to examine your position in this debate. And if you think I'll let you get away with mischaracterizing my argument, think again.
When you create policies limiting ones ability to be productive and enter into the economy, then dont be surprised when people dont enter into the economy and become productive..
Our ability to have access to borrowing, is based upon productivity..
I agree with both your statements.
Central money creation for HC IMO is a superior way to use our fiat. After all HC is a productive business, a huge sector that produces many jobs, services, products, as well as huge quality of life improvement results.
The quality of life improvements are just about incalculable. 100's of millions of Medicare beneficiaries for example have received large improvements in the quality of their health and lives, along with a significant life extension of roughly 10 years through medical advances during my career.
Because you keep on trying to "reinterpret" my argument.
I never said good plans weren't available pre-ACA. I had a good plan pre-ACA. I have a better plan now, and it costs less. And I'm pointing this out because so many people claim that there are no good plans available through the ACA websites. That's untrue. So I think I'm making an excellent argument. One that you've been unable to rebut, which is why you keep on trying to "reinterpret" my argument. If that's all you can do, you might want to examine your position in this debate. And if you think I'll let you get away with mischaracterizing my argument, think again.
There is NOTHING in ACA to make it "cost less" other than subsidies, and even they arent making it cost less, they are making it cost more since those costs need to be passed onto others... they are just posting a previously available plan that YOU DIDNT KNOW ABOUT..
Real nice, you get 200k to move numbers around and since you can pay to get your health care screw everyone else, maybe they can find a charity hospital. I have nothing else to say to you that would not get me banned here
Actually thats whats happening with those getting ACA handouts.. screw everyone else who HAS TO PAY MORE.. so they can get their welfare.
That money isnt FREE.. it has to be paid by SOMEONE ELSE.. But you guys dont give a crap cause you got yours...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
