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Yes, it's a war crime. The victims know. The perpetrators (Israel) know but remain silent. The bankrollers (USA) know but won't inform their citizens. Besides, it's not a war crime if the media doesn't tell us about it.
It was a war crime once The Palestians started the whole thing back in the late 40's. Once again here you have the Palestians launching missiles at the Israelis and forcing Israel to defend itself
The British caused the whole problem because of the way they carved up the country into Gaza and West Bank, and Israel. Why didnt they give the Palestinians one chunk of land so they could put a de-militarized zone in between?
The British caused the whole problem because of the way they carved up the country into Gaza and West Bank, and Israel. Why didnt they give the Palestinians one chunk of land so they could put a de-militarized zone in between?
The British didn't particularly care how they carved up someone else's land. They were also the colonial power in India--which wound up separating into two nations (India and Pakistan) on largely religious grounds. For that matter, as one of the major colonial powers in Africa, they also contributed to carving up territories based on political agreements that had nothing to do with the people who actually inhabited the lands.
Well I would like for the US to remain an ally of Israel and vice versa but on a level playing field. Our relationship should be on par with any other ally we have and be a two way street. As it stands today, we may as well add another star to our flag, and I disagree with the closeness of this relationship we share.
I think it should be noted that there are many Israeli's who object to their governments handling of the whole situation and in fact there is great debate within Israel as to what the best course of action should be. It would be unfair to paint or associate all of the people of Israel with the actions of their government. I only wish we could achieve the same level of discourse on this subject here in the United States as they do in Israel or the rest of the world.
Like the objections of the majority of Americans to our policies in Iraq, it is no less the actions and choices of our government, and even then, not the entire government. This can just as easily be applied to America, Israel, or even many moderate Arab states.
Thta's the trouble really;hamas has no such dission and want the same thing they always have ;thwe destruction of Israel.Hamas started it with the support of the locals ;let them decide when enough is enough. This cease fire every 6 months only to be broken solves nothihng but letting hamas resupply.
I see you are only telling one side of the story here then you ask no one else to tell the other side.
"Please, lets not let this regress into who did what, who was here first, etc..."
If someone throws rocks at my house I'll throw bigger rocks at their house!
I do not appreciate the comments such as "my terrorist" and if you cannot engage in a meaningful manner then don't bother to engage at all. You asked that this not regress while at the same time making such comments, so which is it?
I was asking a very specific question in the original post. I was not asking about the history of the conflict, the genetic make up of Middle Eastern Olive trees or who threw the first rock 2500 years ago. If I ever do a piece on human slavery, I'll be sure to show both the upside as well as the downside, but for now, I'm asking one question.
Its a simple question, is the use of collective punishment against an entire group of people for the acts of the few or even many, justified?
I realize that in recent times the United States no long considers water boarding torture, even though it once did and sentenced people to death for it. Since the use of collective punishment is only seen as a war crime by the Hague, I'm asking, do you agree?
If you agree then where might one draw the line at the use of collective punishment? If say one of our enemies bombs one of our embassies, then couldn't a similar argument be made for the oppositional side?
Back in October, the European Union warned Israel against a collective punishment in Gaza.
From Reuters EU warns against 'collective punishment' in Gaza | World | Reuters
Israel's response was sanctions and reducing supplies of fuel and food needed during the cold winter months.
Olmert's actions verged on a humanitarian crisis which encouraged extremists within Hamas to retaliate lest they appear weak and corrupt like the ineffectual Fatah leadership.
We now see truth in the maxim 'when goods don't cross borders, soldiers will'
Collective punishment has always been a government response aimed at encouraging and increasing hostilities between cultures, tribes or races.
See Rwanda for an example of this policy in action.
Kudos to tnhilltopper and other cd members who are willing to question the official media and government line and search for the real reasons behind current events such as this.
Last edited by mcmastersteve; 01-02-2009 at 08:43 PM..
Anyone familiar with the 4th articles of the Geneva Convention realize this is the section that deals with, "collective punishment". Article 33 states: "No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed," and "collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.". This was written due to the atrocities committed during WWI, with the Germans against the Belgians and again in WWII, with the Nazi's collectively punishing entire villages and towns for supporting the resistance in France and elsewhere.
For those of you who haven't been following along with the latest out of the occupied territories, the Gaza, and Israel, let me fill you in. Israel, in response to rocket attacks out of the Gaza has shut off fuel, electricity and water to the Gaza, in effect punishing the entire population, most of which have not committed any acts of violence towards Israel.
Since the blockade began, Israel has allowed one fuel convoy to cross into the Gaza and has intermittently turned power on and off over the course of the last few weeks. In addition, Egypt has closed its borders crossings as well to prevent the rising stream of refugee's from coming across the border into Egypt. Subsequently, the Palestinians have rushed the border, tore down the blockade and entered into Egypt in order to find relief. There was mention in an Israeli newspaper by a senior IDF official that the goals was an attempt to force the people of Gaza into Egypt, although these claims were later denied.
There have been many discussions about the Palestinians wanting to wipe Israel off the map, yet when one looks at the map of the region, it is in fact the Palestinians who are being driven "off the map", and the United States has done nothing to condemn what is seen by many as collective punishment or even ethnic cleansing.
Please, lets not let this regress into who did what, who was here first, etc... as it is as pointless to even debate in this forum. My question is specifically addressing the actions of Israel towards the people of the Gaza and why the US has not condemned such actions.
OK, the terrorist they are targeting also use fuel, electricity and water. Do you know of a way to selectively deny fuel, electricity and water to terrorists while providing it to non-participants? Maybe the Geniva convention spells out how that is done.
If the Palistiniens keep getting it handed to them by the IDF, perhaps they should stop picking fights with them that they cannot finish.
I do not appreciate the comments such as "my terrorist" Why do Jews typically lean left? Is it some kind of a "fight the power" mentality?
In Massachusetts the liberals are all baby boomers who are trying to relive the glory days of the 60's and early 70's. For some reason Conservatism is their idea of "The Man"
They are also "Kennedy Liberals" with ideologies that bear very little resemblance to JFK's brand of liberalism.and if you cannot engage in a meaningful manner then don't bother to engage at all. You asked that this not regress while at the same time making such comments, so which is it?
I was asking a very specific question in the original post. I was not asking about the history of the conflict, the genetic make up of Middle Eastern Olive trees or who threw the first rock 2500 years ago. If I ever do a piece on human slavery, I'll be sure to show both the upside as well as the downside, but for now, I'm asking one question.
Its a simple question, is the use of collective punishment against an entire group of people for the acts of the few or even many, justified?
I realize that in recent times the United States no long considers water boarding torture, even though it once did and sentenced people to death for it. Since the use of collective punishment is only seen as a war crime by the Hague, I'm asking, do you agree?
If you agree then where might one draw the line at the use of collective punishment? If say one of our enemies bombs one of our embassies, then couldn't a similar argument be made for the oppositional side?
Should the terrorist firing rockets at civilians in Israel be allowed to get fuel deliveries, water and electricity? Using your logic, isn't any retaliation by Israel on any targets in this area collective punishment of all the residents? So now that the IDF has done what it needs to do to protect it's citizens you want to put them on trial for defending their homeland from terrorists. How is it that you don't simply hate Israel?
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