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You can look at the histroical prospective of WWII but in the end it really meant nothing then as it won't how.I mean looking at the historical arms race and war that followed should have meant that people gave up on Europe but they didn't.In the end it meant zero to the conclusion.
On one side you have Israel. They are under constant threat of jihad attacks. They are forced to teach their children how to recognize and protect themselves from terrorists. That is sad.
On the other you have the radicals who will stop at nothing to kill as many jews as possible.
In the middle you have the common palestinian who wants nothing more than to live.
Israel responds to attacks by attacking or making examples out of any palestinians. Bulldozing houses at random? Leveling a city block? Denying medical care? I would think this would create more anti Israel feelings.
The Hamas feed on Israels retaliations.
I am no fan of the UN in fact I honestly don't trust nor respect the UN. However a peace keeping force would benefit Israel as much as the Palestinians. Why is Israel so against it? Do they fear that there will be neutral witnesses to their misdeeds. So damning that not even their sugar daddy can buy them out of it?
2 billion a year? In return we enjoy the ire of most arabs in the area, we enjoy what in return?
I did some time over there and I saw and heard first hand Israels approach.
They get a walk. Compare if Iran were to retaliate in the exact same manner would we be so willing to turn the blind eye? I think not. And that is what causes the hate against us.
I agree. Why has no peacekeeping force been allowed into Palestinian lands?
Why?
Can someone answer this question?
I don't believe collective punishment is effective. It just breeds more fighters and rebels and yes terrorists, who feel even more justified in their cause.
And I am sorry, I don't trust the Israeli Army either. Too much history there. Too many shady things in the past. I don't care if they're now on Youtube.
They shouldn't get a free pass, and that is basically what happens.
What a dire situation!
Last edited by mommytotwo; 01-02-2009 at 10:18 PM..
And sadly, this is the standard for this discussion in most cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey
Should the terrorist firing rockets at civilians in Israel be allowed to get fuel deliveries, water and electricity? Using your logic, isn't any retaliation by Israel on any targets in this area collective punishment of all the residents? So now that the IDF has done what it needs to do to protect it's citizens you want to put them on trial for defending their homeland from terrorists. How is it that you don't simply hate Israel?
Israel has every right to retaliate, I certainly never said that they didn't. It is one thing to strike back at those that strike at you, it is however a completely different thing to punish and entire group for the acts of some or even many. I mean, if someone were to swing a fist at me, would that then give me the right to go beat the tar out of their family or neighbors, even if they egged you to hit me in the first place? The law says I do not.
This is the greatest challenge facing Israel with this matter, how to deal with the acts of the few in light of the many. I suppose Israel could just go in and kill every man woman and child in biblical fashion like Joshuah and leave none standing, that would take care of the problem for those that embrace such methods. Would probably be much less suffering of people in the end to just put a bullet in all those brown skinned skulls and get it over with quick. Might upset a few people but think of all the people who would get their jollies at such an event, we could turn it into a pay-per-view gig and charge 39.99 a night to watch.
There are more civilized manners of doing things however I suspect none involved wish to put forth the effort, patience and probably even more suffering in the short term to come to a viable long term solution. The first step is even stated below in the following post.
How is it that I simply don't hate Israel, that is quite easy, because Israel isn't a "monolithic thing". Israel is a nation made of diverse opinion and many of those opinions that even agree with mine. I realize that it is easy for many around here to hate and entire race of people or religion because of the acts of some of its people, it comes as easy as breathing to most people around here, even though I don't understand it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommytotwo
I agree. Why has no peacekeeping force been allowed into Palestinian lands?
Why?
Can someone answer this question?
I don't believe collective punishment is effective. It just breeds more fighters and rebels and yes terrorists, who feel even more justified in their cause.
They shouldn't get a free pass, and that is basically what happens.
So far, any time it has been suggested that UN peacekeeping forces be placed to ensure the peace, this idea has been flatly rejected by Israel. Why, I cannot answer that right off as it makes no sense to me what so ever but I think it would be a great idea and one that is sorely needed. In fact, I believe Obama has suggested just this very thing in his peace initiative.
Israel might get a free pass on its actions from the US but the rest of the world frequently chides them for their actions and the number of UN resolutions they are in violation of is proof of this. Even in Israel itself there are often protest and news articles which discuss the wisdom of the current methodology in dealing with the situation. It is not hard to understand why the Israeli Knesset bounces between the more militant Likud and more negotiable parties such as the recently founded Kadima or more traditional Labor.
However if there is to be a peace it will have to come from both parties involved with no more onus on one than the other. Sacrifices will have to be made that will probably make some on both sides none too happy. Personally, knowing the players involved, I suspect they will probably go with the Armageddon plan, so be sure and check your Direct TV pay per view listings.
Found an excellent essay on the topic of collective punishment, and the state of affairs in Israel.
The title:
'is applying libertarian principles to Israel anti-semitic?'
The article details effectively, a common shared libertarian opinion towards the complex situation in the middle east.
This might help explain to both conservatives and liberals alike why many libertarians are critical of Hamas and Israel.
We're not fence sitters, we look past left and right, the problem is too much government. Is Applying Libertarian Principles to Israel Anti-Semitic?
I mean, if someone were to swing a fist at me, would that then give me the right to go beat the tar out of their family or neighbors, even if they egged you to hit me in the first place?
If that person was making bombs and homocide vests in his family/neighbors home, with their full cooperation, then ... yes.
Quote:
I realize that it is easy for many around here to hate and entire race of people or religion because of the acts of some of its people, it comes as easy as breathing to most people around here, even though I don't understand it.
No one is doing that here. The hate, if you will, is for that terrorist group hamas. What they have done to their people through their radical, militant, violent agenda - they have no one to blame but themselves. If the "normal" palestinians would rather go this route than seek peace, so be it.
Quote:
So far, any time it has been suggested that UN peacekeeping forces be placed to ensure the peace, this idea has been flatly rejected by Israel. Why, I cannot answer that right off as it makes no sense to me what so ever but I think it would be a great idea and one that is sorely needed. In fact, I believe Obama has suggested just this very thing in his peace initiative.
ONLY if those peacekeepers will crack down on hamas in the event they start attacking Israel with rockets, bombers etc. Or will they just be used as another "shield" for hamas and their activities?
Israel has every right to retaliate, I certainly never said that they didn't. It is one thing to strike back at those that strike at you, it is however a completely different thing to punish and entire group for the acts of some or even many.
Since Hamas launches rockets from and hides in civilian neighborhoods, it is impossible to retaliate against them without inconveniencing civilian Palestinians. That is the fault of Hamas, not Israel.
Israel does their utmost best to single out the terrorists and reduce civilian casualties. That's why they're notifying civilians living in close proximity to Hamas militants that they're going to bomb them. Once Israel liberates Palestine from Hamas, the Palestinians get their life back. It's very simple.
Since Hamas launches rockets from and hides in civilian neighborhoods, it is impossible to retaliate against them without inconveniencing civilian Palestinians. That is the fault of Hamas, not Israel.
Israel does their utmost best to single out the terrorists and reduce civilian casualties. That's why they're notifying civilians living in close proximity to Hamas militants that they're going to bomb them. Once Israel liberates Palestine from Hamas, the Palestinians get their life back. It's very simple.
In this case, we are not even talking about retaliation for rocket attacks. While this may have collateral damage it isn't directed at the entire population.
The issue is that Gaza is walled off and its inhabitants contained within a perimeter. Those inside are nearly completely dependent upon those on the outside of the wall for electricity, fresh drinking water, and sanitation.
If you recall not too long ago when Israel was forced to allow more shipments of food to enter Gaza as its inhabitants were breaking through the border with Egypt to get clean water and food. It was world outrage that Israel would withhold food and water for an entire population of people as a matter of policy. Denying an entire population food, water, medicine, targets militants as well as new born babies, hence the "collective punishment part".
From all reports, Israel is delivering supplies into Gaza and working with outside humanitarian groups to do the same. It's also reported there are gaps, and it's not an ideal situation. This situation rests entirely on Hamas shoulders. Israel and even Arab leaders have plead with Hamas to knock off the rocket attacks into Israel, but to no avail. The breaking point has finally been reached. It's easy to be critical, but much more difficult to offer solutions.
The breaking point has finally been reached. It's easy to be critical, but much more difficult to offer solutions.
It looks like Israel will unilaterally apply it's own solution - which appears to include a pending ground invasion.
Bombs from 15000 feet can only do so much to those militants hiding in their bunkers - Israel will have to root them out. They can't leave those militants free and intact to just regroup again when Israel stops the bombing.
It appears more "war crimes" (ie, Israel killing the militant terrorists) will be coming soon.
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