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Many Muslims? Hello? Try again. Hamas Charter "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
So would YOU recognize a government whose charter is to eliminate you without any other possible resolution being acceptable?
Well there are of course many in Hamas that share these feelings towards Israel, and in fact there are many in the Muslim world who do as well. This does not give credit to the many who do not, as NewToCa pointed out in a previous post.
The snippet you posted from the Hamas charter is accurate but incomplete. I would have liked to have seen the source you used to post this because if it is from the mideastweb.org site, then you failed to post the complete picture. While the Mideastweb.org site is based out of Tel Aviv, Israel it is a well documented and fair site that I use myself.
The "charter" which you posted had arisen out of the militant wing of Hamas and there were in fact three wings of Hamas. The three wings of Hamas were the political wing, the militant wing, and the intelligence wing, to which the intelligence wing later was incorporated with the militant wing.
This desire for folks to pain the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in such simple terms is grossly misguided and wholly inaccurate. It just doesn't break down to good guys on this side of a line and bad guys on this side of the line, as if it were, the situation would have been resolved by now.
Israel barely interfered with its activities initially, continuing to see it as a social reformist organization and thus promoting it as a viable partner in discussions in order to marginalize the PLO, resulting in frequent meetings between Hamas figures (including Yassin) and Israeli government officials such as a reported Zahar-Rabin meeting.
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Unlike Arafat, Hamas did not support Saddam Hussein in the first Gulf War, when Iraq invaded Kuwait. Instead they called for both Iraqi and US withdrawal. Consequently, Gulf States shifted their funding from PLO to Hamas, and may have donated as much as $28m per month (from Saudi Arabia primarily). Hamas thus took PLO's welfare role away from it, generating considerable public support due to their greater efficiency.
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In 1994, after protest against the PA, there were shootings in Gaza by PA police and Arafat coopted the leadership in Gaza, which subsequently opted for non-military measures. This caused a split in Hamas leadership throughout the occupied territories. At the same time, Abu Marzuq, head of Hamas political leadership in Jordan, gave de facto acceptance of Israel within 1948 borders, by declaring that a hudna (truce) would be in place if Israel withdrew from the occupied territories, signifying supposedly a recognition of the legitimacy of Israel within the Green Line. This was also reiterated by Sheikh Yassin in a Spring 94 letter in which he offered a ceasefire (hudna) if Israeli forces withdraw from occupied territories, settlements were dismantled and prisoners were released.
The point of the OP was discuss this single event of the ongoing struggle, but apparently I am mistaken that I could discuss this without it becoming a 2000 year history lesson who started what, and peoples ability to separate one event from another without obfuscation. For that, my apologies for placing the bar too high.
The point of the OP was discuss this single event of the ongoing struggle, but apparently I am mistaken that I could discuss this without it becoming a 2000 year history lesson who started what, and peoples ability to separate one event from another without obfuscation. For that, my apologies for placing the bar too high.
I don't know, Hilltopper. It seems to me that you have made the point more than once that some historical context is necessary to analyze current events from a more comprehensive perspective. That you are impatient with those who have attempted to do so in this thread is inconsistent with your observations in other, similar discussions.
I don't know, Hilltopper. It seems to me that you have made the point more than once that some historical context is necessary to analyze current events from a more comprehensive perspective. That you are impatient with those who have attempted to do so in this thread is inconsistent with your observations in other, similar discussions.
Of course it certainly helps to have some historical context to place or analyze these things in. However I made a point in this particular thread to attempt to keep it narrow because previous attempts to discuss anything related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ends up encompassing so much that each individual event cannot be discussed based upon its own merits. What usually follows then are accusations of Antisemitism, anti-Israel, or go get your Klan robes bubba, I know because I have not only witnessed it but been an object of such accusations. I have made the attempt to try and avert such a regression and narrow the topic to this one event, and I admit, I failed.
I have noticed that those who believe this particular event is wrong, simply state so. Those who do not agree interject a variety of historical circumstances and events in order to rationalize or justify a contrary position. In the case of your response, it isn't related to the subject, it is then directed at me and previous posts I have made in what I am guessing is an attempt to divert discussion to my person instead of the topic.
In any case, as I have said, my apologies for attempting to discuss an event with hopes of not turning this into a 1500 year history lesson, as so stated in the OP.
Last edited by TnHilltopper; 01-28-2008 at 11:12 PM..
Of course it certainly helps to have some historical context to place or analyze these things in. However I made a point in this particular thread to attempt to keep it narrow because previous attempts to discuss anything related to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ends up encompassing so much that each individual event cannot be discussed based upon its own merits. What usually follows then are accusations of anti-Antisemitism, anti-Israel, or go get your Klan robes bubba, I know because I have not only witnessed it but been an object of such accusations. I have made the attempt to try and avert such a regression and narrow the topic to this one event, and I admit, I failed.
I have noticed that those who believe this particular event is wrong, simply state so. Those who do not agree interject a variety of historical circumstances and events in order to rationalize or justify a contrary position. In the case of your response, it isn't related to the subject, it is then directed at me and previous posts I have made in what I am guessing is an attempt to divert discussion to my person instead of the topic.
In any case, as I have said, my apologies for attempting to discuss an event with hopes of not turning this into a 1500 year history lesson, as so stated in the OP.
I understand your point of view and I respect it. I have avoided this particular thread for the reasons you stated: it's an old and highly contentious topic, and threads in this topic area tend to end up yielding more heat than light.
I did not mean to question your veracity or your intentions. You don't have to apologize to me or anybody else...
And we all know that all Palestinians from birth (especially women and children) agree with the stated aim of the extreme millitant wing of their political scene and wish to eradicate Israel -- therefore they must be collectively punished with the judgement of Yahweh + Jesus with super powers.
Palestinian mom: "Honey, I'm having a baby!"
Palestinian baby right out the womb: "Where's Tel Aviv mommy? I have to get my diapers on and go suicide bomb a marketplace!"
Palestinian dad: "Good boy, Muhammad!"
Luckily, however, the IDF bombed the village with the evil murderous baby in it before any harm could be done (to real people at least). Day saved!
Last edited by fishmonger; 01-29-2008 at 11:48 AM..
And we all know that all Palestinians from birth (especially women and children) agree with the stated aim of the extreme millitant wing of their political scene and wish to eradicate Israel --
Yes we have seen these pics before. Just as I have seen the pics of Israeli children cheering when they found out Israel bombed that hospital in lebanon.
I wonder how many american children would want to be law abiding citizens after watching their parents being treated worse than dogs? After watching grandma in dire need of medical care die needlessly because the Israeli at the gate thought that it would be fun to make the rags beg?
I have been to Israel and trained with them. They dont bother to hide how they feel. I don't blame them for all of it. I do hold them accountable for their share of it. Their policy of over kill creates far more enimies than it eliminates.
Overkill? Well, yeah, they tend to get a little testy with folks that want to exterminate them, especially on the heels of Hitler and Nazi Germany.
To the point of the thread though. Hamas uses Gaza as a launching pad for rockets into Israel and aimed at civilians. How would you suggest Israel deal with this? They could bomb the hell out of the place, and then you would complain about civilian casualties. And asking Hamas politely to stop has proven ineffective. Somebody else mentioned, and it's so true. What do you think the US response would be if Mexico started firing rockets into San Diego? You think we'd sit still and take it?
The fact is, that's the way islamics fight. They hide behind civilians, in homes in the middle of neighborhoods. They fight from the mosques, and cry foul if you bomb one. They're experts at garnering world-sympathy with these tactics, and you've fallen for it. Nowhere else will you see parents strapping their children with bombs. Palestinian kids are taught to hate Jews, and the western world in general, they hate me, and they hate you. Why does the US want an ally like Israel? Because it's the only true democracy in the middle east. Israel has western values and a culture that you can understand. The islamics have a feudal culture. They fight everyone, and they fight themselves. If you insult an Muslim's parents, he will kill you. It's what Thomas Friedman calls "Hama Rules". It's so foreign to our way of thinking that us westerners can never begin to understand them. You could send the Israeli's packing and give the whole place to the Palestinians, and there still would be no peace in the middle east. You'd have Jordan, Syria and Egypt in an instant bloodbath, all laying claim to the region. Tell me that's not true.
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Originally Posted by tinman01
After watching grandma in dire need of medical care die needlessly because the Israeli at the gate thought that it would be fun to make the rags beg?
I have been to Israel and trained with them.
Make the "rags" beg? I've never heard an Israeli call Arabs "rags". Have you? Or is that your term?
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