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Old 08-13-2015, 02:17 PM
 
14,298 posts, read 8,113,535 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored View Post
Yes, both parties are filled with hypocrisy. I may lean a little to the left, especially on social issues, but I am definitely not 100% on either side. They are both corrupt, I just hope to vote for the least corrupt!
No one is 100% anything, even liberal, Democratic Party senators can find themselves on the opposite sides of the same issue.

 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:20 PM
 
16,284 posts, read 9,118,477 times
Reputation: 6561
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Killing babies is extreme. Having an abortion is not. Because a 12-week old fetus is not a baby. And I'm just pointing out that the idea that women are somehow not capable of making decisions about their own lives and bodies is extremist. Women are just as competent to determine what is in their best interests as men are. And while I'm not saying that you hold on to this idea, there are many out there who seem to subscribe to the idea that women deserve to be punished for having sex. I reject that idea utterly. Sex is a natural part of life, it's part of what makes us human. The development of safe (and I use that term relatively) birth control has given women much more control over their lives. Abortion reinforces the concept that a woman should have such control, that her body is hers, that her life is hers. Is it a huge responsibility? Absolutely. But I can assure you that the vast majority of women take abortion very seriously, it is not casual, it is not about convenience, it is a very serious choice, and they don't make that choice lightly. Admonishing women to not have sex actually takes things lightly. I can only think that the people who advise unmarried women to live lives of complete abstinence (because that's the only way a woman can 100% avoid an unwanted pregnancy) and to live in some kind of cloistered world where there is no risk of being sexually assaulted, are people who don't have much of a sex drive, and who live a somewhat cloistered existence themselves.

Making the choice that's best for yourself is not needing excuses. Abortion can be a smart choice for some women.

We are just have very different views. we are extremely far from one another.
let me say that this has been a very rare rational discussion on a subject where most people get way crazy and start yelling at one another. I appreciate the degree to which we have discussed and even used words like "extreme" yet have found some civility.

let me also say that regardless of the situation that leads to the abortion the vast majority of the time its traumatic.

I am however never going to change the view that innocence is the standard we should live by. a 12 week fetus will recoil from stimulus that you and I would consider pain. That is as human as I need to see to seek to protect that.
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:20 PM
 
Location: Baldwin County, AL
2,446 posts, read 1,048,081 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by OICU812 View Post
No one is 100% anything, even liberal, Democratic Party senators can find themselves on the opposite sides of the same issue.
Some people just fall in line. I see it all the time here in Alabama. Maybe in their mind they aren't 100%, but they sure do act like it.
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:22 PM
 
40,114 posts, read 24,365,923 times
Reputation: 12624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
If a 12-week old "fetus" is not a baby, why is it's heart beating at anywhere from 130 to 170 bpm?
Because it is not a baby. A heartbeat doesn't mean that a person is in residence. I had an uncle who was riding a motorcycle and was hit by a semi running a red light. The police officer scraped up his brain matter off the pavement. My uncle was taken to a Catholic hospital, that hooked him up to life support. His heart was beating. So the hospital presumed life. It took a court order to get the hospital to take him off the respirator. A heartbeat doesn't mean that a person is in residence.
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
71,968 posts, read 83,656,005 times
Reputation: 41778
Quote:
Originally Posted by southernbored View Post
Completely agree about hypocrisy! Like pro-lifers who only care about the kid until it takes its first breath!
and what is that supposed to mean?You have not clue what you are talking about. Kids born, if their families have no or little means of support are cared for by the government or did you not know that? If mother is willing these babies are put up for adoption and usually find homes in a few weeks. I know, I not only have 2 adopted kids we have family members recently that did adopt.It cost them a fortune cause mom had to be paid for giving her baby a good home. Now, explain what you mean?
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:25 PM
 
16,284 posts, read 9,118,477 times
Reputation: 6561
Quote:
Originally Posted by katzpaw View Post
What do you believe should be the cut off? Egg fertilization? 1st trimester? 20 weeks? ...
I answered that.

implantation. which leaves room for morning after pill.

I see it slightly differently than most people articulate.

I believe in protecting the innocent. Where a woman has been mistreated, she deserves protection. she is the innocent victim. Where that is not in play the baby is the innocent.
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:27 PM
 
Location: Baldwin County, AL
2,446 posts, read 1,048,081 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmnita View Post
and what is that supposed to mean?You have not clue what you are talking about. Kids born, if their families have no or little means of support are cared for by the government or did you not know that? If mother is willing these babies are put up for adoption and usually find homes in a few weeks. I know, I not only have 2 adopted kids we have family members recently that did adopt.It cost them a fortune cause mom had to be paid for giving her baby a good home. Now, explain what you mean?

I mean, the pro-lifers who fight and scream to fight abortion, but then call the parents deadbeats and say they shouldn't have had a kid. I am not saying ALL pro-lifers, just certain ones. Chill out
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
71,968 posts, read 83,656,005 times
Reputation: 41778
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
You make it sound like it's so easy to give up a baby for adoption, but it's not. If a woman wants to explore adoption, and can make that work for her, I'm all for it. If a woman wants to go through with the pregnancy, I'm all for it. And if a woman decides that abortion is the best choice for her, then I support her decision as well. I'm pro-women. I believe that a woman is capable in every way of making the decision that's best for her.

And just so you know, abortions have been around since women started getting pregnant. It's not some new invention. Years and years ago, women, including the parents of many of the children you went to school with, had abortions and did so privately. These kinds of things, years and years ago, were considered personal and private, and people didn't talk about them.

And not all birth control methods work. My mother had a tubal ligation after child #3. Wasn't she surprised when four years later she got pregnant? And she did consider having an abortion, because another child was a huge expense, and my parents certainly had decided BEFOREHAND that they didn't want another child. I've known other couples that have had tubal ligations and vasectomies, that became pregnant. If these methods of contraception aren't 100%, I hardly think condoms and diaphragms would be 100% effective.

It's not irresponsible to have an abortion. Abortions aren't convenient, aren't free. No one wakes up thinking, you know one day I'd like to get an abortion. They aren't nice. They are expensive, they can be very difficult to arrange, and they are difficult emotionally and physically.
wow, often they are free, so lets not say they are not and as for giving up a baby for adoption: no the decision isn't easy but it is a lot more humane than aborting and a lot less selfish.
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:30 PM
 
40,114 posts, read 24,365,923 times
Reputation: 12624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
We are just have very different views. we are extremely far from one another.
let me say that this has been a very rare rational discussion on a subject where most people get way crazy and start yelling at one another. I appreciate the degree to which we have discussed and even used words like "extreme" yet have found some civility.

let me also say that regardless of the situation that leads to the abortion the vast majority of the time its traumatic.

I am however never going to change the view that innocence is the standard we should live by. a 12 week fetus will recoil from stimulus that you and I would consider pain. That is as human as I need to see to seek to protect that.
I don't see any reason why people can't have rational, civil discussions of this issue. And it's important to do so, because we both need to see that the other person's perspective is valid. Your views are perfectly valid. I fully understand the position that innocence should be a standard. And I think you understand that my position in the context of your argument is that the woman is innocent, too. She didn't intend to get pregnant. And if her birth control failed, that doesn't make it her fault. She's still innocent, as innocent as the woman who was raped, or who was coerced by her incestuous relatives. We all are human, and we all have a sex drive. To engage in sex, IMO, is not a sin. So the woman is an innocent. And there is no doubt that an unplanned pregnancy can put many women at risk. Physically, emotionally, financially. To decry their right to consider the risks, and to make the decision that addresses the risks in the best way for her, to me that's the real sin. Women merit our respect as competent, moral, intelligent equals who are entitled to make decisions regarding their lives and bodies.
 
Old 08-13-2015, 02:32 PM
 
40,114 posts, read 24,365,923 times
Reputation: 12624
Quote:
Originally Posted by nmnita View Post
wow, often they are free, so lets not say they are not and as for giving up a baby for adoption: no the decision isn't easy but it is a lot more humane than aborting and a lot less selfish.
I've yet to meet anyone who got an abortion for free. How many such women have you met?
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