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I read your first link, at least most of it. Without the prison camp, the acronym might have been different, but the religious views would still be in existence, as again, they have been since the 7th century. But again, but for our withdrawal in 2011, ISIS would not have been able to establish political/military control in much of Iraq.
Note that this is the 2nd time I've posted this. If you can't respond to the point, other than to reiterate your initial claim (to which I DID respond), I'm not going to post it a 3rd time.
Bush, America, the West or even Obama for that matter did not create the ideology that drives ISIS. Agreed. Unfortunately, the invasion, specifically the prison camps, provided unique opportunities for this virulent political strain to replicate itself.
JFK got shot before Vietnam heated up. Vietnam dates back to Ike anyway. JFK was around too short sadly to really effect the changes to be blamed. LBJ is villified by conservatives for the Great Society, by liberals for Vietnam and by libertarians for Nam and the Civil Rights Act. That's the hat-trick like Bush has. Obama is just has conservatives and libertarians against him.
the thing that Obama has that the others don't have is TIME.
there is plenty of time for history to show he was on its wrong side. plenty....
HOWEVER I am very willing to say, I cannot be unbiased about Obama. so take what I say about him with a grain of salt. all these threads that talk about judging a president, I always say it takes 20 years before you can objectively sort out what they did and didn't do.
come on. you cannot be so intellectually dishonest to think ISIS as we know it today, would have been what it is, had we stayed!
the men who are now the leaders were evil suckers we locked up. they claim because of "American Brutality" they came up with ISIS. Really? you want to believe these guys?
Had we stayed all along and been serious about it, Iraq would be years further down the road to stability. JUST like Germany was in the wake of WW2.
instead we did in Iraq just what the Allies (including the US under Wilson) did in the aftermath of WW1.
WE LEFT
AND leaving is why ISIS is what it is TODAY.
I don't know if it is intellectual dishonesty. I think it is more denial. It's literally a lack of capacity to comprehend, because comprehension would bring forth a conclusion that is too horrible to face, namely that ISIS is and will be a big part of the Obama legacy.
If John McCain, or even Joe Biden (remember that Biden at one time sought the 2008 nomination) had won in 2008, I believe that they would not have ceded large areas of Iraq to ISIS as Obama has.
Bush, America, the West or even Obama for that matter did not create the ideology that drives ISIS. Agreed. Unfortunately, the invasion, specifically the prison camps, provided unique opportunities for this virulent political strain to replicate itself.
Not sure you would agree with me on this... but your post brought a thought to my mind.
its ironic that we were likely too restrictive on our rules of engagement on the battlefield and at the same time, we failed miserably in dealing with those we took prisoner on those same battlefields.
I don't know if it is intellectual dishonesty. I think it is more denial. It's literally a lack of capacity to comprehend, because comprehension would bring forth a conclusion that is too horrible to face, namely that ISIS is and will be a big part of the Obama legacy.
If John McCain, or even Joe Biden (remember that Biden at one time sought the 2008 nomination) had won in 2008, I believe that they would not have ceded large areas of Iraq to ISIS as Obama has.
it is certainly true that Mr. Obama's doctrinal view of American foreign policy is to withdraw and to not project strength.
History will judge but from my very biased view, history will not be kind.
Cool story bro. The only problem is that it was Bush who signed the SOFA that lead to the withdrawal. Can you really not remember basic facts about recent history?
Bush signed it, and I can agree that the agreement was a mistake. Pres. Obama executed it, however, in 2011. Are you able to admit that as a mistake? Not long after the 2011 withdrawal there were calls from the Iraqi foreign minister and others for a return of US troops. Obama ignored them. We'll never know, but I suspect that a Pres. McCain or Biden would not have ignored them.
BTW can you make a post without the annoying & condescending insults?
Bush signed it, and I can agree that the agreement was a mistake. Pres. Obama executed it, however, in 2011. Are you able to admit that as a mistake? Not long after the 2011 withdrawal there were calls from the Iraqi foreign minister and others for a return of US troops. Obama ignored them. We'll never know, but I suspect that a Pres. McCain or Biden would not have ignored them.
BTW can you make a post without the annoying & condescending insults?
Even if the U.S. stayed past 2011 what would the plan be to leave, as McCain and others like him would like to occupy the region forever. The occupation of Iraq is what tremendously helped the Jihad gain support to fight the U.S., whether it was monetarily or manpower.
It was idiotic to go to Iraq in the first place, and it was the right call to leave. Otherwise instead of Iraqis, Syrians, etc.. dying in the mess over there right now it would still be U.S. troops.
You're wrong--no precipitous withdrawal, no ISIS--at least not in Iraq. ISIS is merely practicing a variant of fundamentalist Islam. It has been around since the 7th century. It was not created by Bush, invasion, or an American prison camp.
What do you allege here?? that we should have stayed in Iraq indefinitely? isn't it bad enough we were there as long as we were (and AT ALL) and the trillions of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ we spent, for WHAT???
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isn't it bad enough we were there as long as we were (and AT ALL) and the trillions of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ we spent, for WHAT???
