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The link has this:
"The virus in the vaccine is alive. It can be spread from the vaccination site to other parts of your body or to other people through close physical contact. This can happen until the scab falls off. In the past, the vaccine virus was spread from vaccinated people to others about 2 to 6 times out of every 100,000 people vaccinated for the first time (this usually happened between people who lived together)."
I assume that to mean that the CDC thinks that vaccinated people can infect others...
I shouldn't have the burden of proof. It is the government that wants to know whether or not a child is immune so they should prove they are not before I have to purchase a product and go through a medical procedure. Also all vaccinated persons should have to prove their immunity since the vaccine is not 100% effective. Those that don't respond should also be banned from attending school. Otherwise it is pure discrimination against people who refuse a medical procedure and a pharmaceutical product and the real issue becomes about compliance not immunity. If my immune children are not allowed to go to public school but non-immune vaccinated kids are then the problem still exists and the "herd immunity" excuse is bogus.
So whether you get vaccinated for tetanus or not... proper wound care is the most effective way of preventing the disease.
Suzy... There is NO - NONE - ZERO - ZILCH risk in strapping a kid into a car seat. There is no risk when putting on your seat belt. An air bag deploys during AN ACCIDENT. So until car seats, seat belts, and non-deployed air bags start causing ACCIDENT LIKE SYMPTOMS when you use them, you cannot intelligently compare them to vaccines which carry risk the moment they are injected (use vaccine=risk of injury). (Not to mention that you CAN sue the manufacturer if those products are defective but vaccine manufacturers and doctors cannot be sued.)
The comparison is really underhanded and shows that it might be YOU who should not be participating in the discussion.
From your links: Do note that among children, the number with "natural" titers is quite low: 4 out of 99 had protective titers,e.g. basically 4%. 40% of unimmunized adults had protective titers, meaning 60% did not. So some people who lived in "unhygienic conditions" did pick up immunity. I don't think that's how most of us want to live. And they did not discuss the numbers who died of tetanus and didn't live to be tested.
What percentage of immunized adults got tetanus from exposure? Your link doesn't say. I recall learning that there has never been a case of tetanus in a fully immunized person. From your link: "This is the first report of grade III tetanus with protective levels of antibody in the United States. The diagnosis of tetanus, nevertheless, should not be discarded solely on the basis of seemingly protective anti-tetanus titers." Meaning, this situation is beyond rare, but don't discount the possibility of tetanus in people with high titers.
I should note that the first link only discussed protective titers, not necessarily protection against disease.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 10-23-2015 at 10:55 PM..
I know you are confused. It is terribly obvious. The vaccine virus can be spread to other people, but it does not cause smallpox, because the virus in the vaccine is not smallpox virus.
You said:
That is not true.
The response to the chickenpox vaccine is so robust that we can presume that someone who shows proof of vaccination is immune.
Most children with chickenpox will have had the diagnosis confirmed by a doctor. You may not like it, but requiring the few who have no such documentation to get a titer is perfectly reasonable.
I quoted from the CDC and if you don't trust the CDC then.... IDK what you want.
No it's not. If my kids had chicken pox then they (the government) need to prove that my kids are not immune. IF immunity is the subject. However, the subject seems to be the vaccine. Natural immunity means they did not have the vaccine but the actual disease. IF immunity is contributing to "herd immunity" then my kids have no reason to get the chicken pox vaccine. The burden of proof is on the one questioning which is the government so they should pay the titer expense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
You can get tetanus despite proper wound care. That is why ERs offer the vaccine. Not wanting to immunize your kids against tetanus is mind boggling. it's a horrible disease with high mortality.
No... proper wound care is the best defense. Even the CDC acknowledges this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Vaccines do not cause injuries the instant they are injected, barring anaphylaxis, which is usually successfully treated, does not cause permanent harm, and rarely causes death. Just as a vaccine has small risk of causing harm, use of automobile restraints also has small risk of causing harm.
But they have the capacity to cause harm the moment they are injected. Strapping your kid into a child seat does not cause harm EVER. Use of seat belts does not cause harm EVER. It is the accident you get into that causes injury. ALWAYS. You are spreading misinformation and it is really sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
The injuries happen even when the safety devices work as intended, not because they are defective:
We have a no fault system to compensate those who truly have serious adverse effects from vaccines, which are not due to negligence on the part of the manufacturer or the doctor. Suing the drug company or doctor for something neither caused would fail.
Again... it has to be an accident before the fault exists. Just strapping the kid into a car seat causes no risk. A seat belt has NO RISK. An air bag has ZERO risk until and accident occurs. That's misrepresenting the risk to say that those are anything like vaccines. There is a risk EVERYTIME a vaccine is injected. Noone can say what person will have an adverse reaction. You have a risk EVERY SINGLE TIME.
If you continue to spread misinformation about the risks from vaccines then you just show how ignorant you actually are.
From your links: Do note that among children, the number with "natural" titers is quite low: 4 out of 99 had protective titers,e.g. basically 4%. 40% of unimmunized adults had protective titers, meaning 60% did not. So some people who lived in "unhygienic conditions" did pick up immunity. I don't think that's how most of us want to live. And they did not discuss the numbers who died of tetanus and didn't live to be tested.
What percentage of immunized adults got tetanus from exposure? Your link doesn't say. I recall learning that there has never been a case of tetanus in a fully immunized person. From your link: "This is the first report of grade III tetanus with protective levels of antibody in the United States. The diagnosis of tetanus, nevertheless, should not be discarded solely on the basis of seemingly protective anti-tetanus titers." Meaning, this situation is beyond rare, but don't discount the possibility of tetanus in people with high titers.
I should note that the first link only discussed protective titers, not necessarily protection against disease.
So you don't understand. That is fine. Titers are known to be iffy at best so it stands to reason that the titers for vaccinated people would be within range yet they get it nonetheless. If my kids test for high titers of the diseases they endured such as chicken pox, it doesn't mean they are immune nor does low titers mean they are not. It is an imperfect system.
The bottom line is that the only way my kids will be admitted into public school is if they are vaccinated regardless of immunity. This means that it is a forced purchase of a for-profit item. How do you really advocate that? If the for-profit item was a tracking device would you feel the same?
So you don't understand. That is fine. Titers are known to be iffy at best so it stands to reason that the titers for vaccinated people would be within range yet they get it nonetheless. If my kids test for high titers of the diseases they endured such as chicken pox, it doesn't mean they are immune nor does low titers mean they are not. It is an imperfect system.
The bottom line is that the only way my kids will be admitted into public school is if they are vaccinated regardless of immunity. This means that it is a forced purchase of a for-profit item. How do you really advocate that? If the for-profit item was a tracking device would you feel the same?
Titers can be iffy, including those done in your links. Those don't prove immunity either. But titers are the best we have right now.
Tracking devices is a slippery slope argument; a logical fallacy.
I quoted from the CDC and if you don't trust the CDC then.... IDK what you want.
You do not understand what the CDC link said. That is the problem. Smallpox vaccine cannot cause smallpox because it does not contain smallpox virus. The virus it does contain can be spread to others. That is why precautions must be observed by people who have been vaccinated.
Quote:
No it's not. If my kids had chicken pox then they (the government) need to prove that my kids are not immune. IF immunity is the subject. However, the subject seems to be the vaccine. Natural immunity means they did not have the vaccine but the actual disease. IF immunity is contributing to "herd immunity" then my kids have no reason to get the chicken pox vaccine. The burden of proof is on the one questioning which is the government so they should pay the titer expense.
If your child needs a physical exam to play a sport at school, should the government pay for that?
Quote:
No... proper wound care is the best defense. Even the CDC acknowledges this.
Tetanus prevention is part of proper wound care. Local care is essential but not sufficient for prevention of tetanus.
But they have the capacity to cause harm the moment they are injected. Strapping your kid into a child seat does not cause harm EVER. Use of seat belts does not cause harm EVER. It is the accident you get into that causes injury. ALWAYS. You are spreading misinformation and it is really sad.
Seat belts, air bags, and child restraints can and do cause injuries in accidents. It is rather absurd to insist they do not.
Quote:
Again... it has to be an accident before the fault exists. Just strapping the kid into a car seat causes no risk. A seat belt has NO RISK. An air bag has ZERO risk until and accident occurs. That's misrepresenting the risk to say that those are anything like vaccines. There is a risk EVERYTIME a vaccine is injected. Noone can say what person will have an adverse reaction. You have a risk EVERY SINGLE TIME.
If you continue to spread misinformation about the risks from vaccines then you just show how ignorant you actually are.
The risk that an injury will occur due to automobile safety features does indeed exist as soon as the decision to use the feature is made. It seems you have no concept of what the word risk means.
No one denies that vaccines carry risks. They are just vanishingly small, and much lower than the risks of the diseases they prevent - just as the risk of using a car seat for your baby is much less than the risk of not doing so.
I had both kinds of measles as a child, as did a lot of the children that I knew. We called the rubella measles, the three day measles. I remember being very, very sick with one of the measles, probably Rubeola, which we called roseola, and required a brief hospitalization. I was kindergarten age.
I think the vaccinations are a good thing though not on the level of the polio or smallpox vaccines. Those are potentially life altering or life threatening. The same with the diphtheria, pertussis and tetanus vaccine. I had read many, many accounts of the horrible deaths of young children in the early parts of the 20 century from diphtheria and whooping cough. it must have been truly heartrending to watch your young child struggle to breath and you could do nothing. And it was not a quick death.
I was vaccinated, my children were vaccinated and we did not suffer any ill effects from having done so.
Symptoms appear about 10-14 days after a person is infected with the rubeola virus. This is called the incubation period. During this period, the virus is multiplying. Symptoms occur in two phases.
The red measles rash develops from two to four days later.
The rash usually starts on the face, spreading to the trunk and then to the arms and legs.
The rash is initially small red bumps that may blend into each other as more appear. From a distance, the rash often looks uniformly red.
People with measles may develop small grayish spots on the inside of the cheek, called "Koplik spots."
The rash is usually not itchy, but as it clears up, the skin may shed (this looks like skin that is peeling after sunburn).
Although red measles is often a mild disease, a few serious complications may occur. Red measles makes people more vulnerable to pneumonia and bacterial ear infections. Pneumonia as a complication of measles is especially serious in infants and is responsible for most deaths in this age group. Inflammation of the brain (encephalitis) occurs about once in every thousand cases of measles and is a serious complication that can be fatal.
Red measles is particularly severe in people with weakened immune systems, including people who are malnourished or haveHIV.
Rubella ("German measles")
German measles causes milder symptoms than red measles. The incubation period between getting the virus and getting sick is 10 days to two weeks.
Initially, some people experience fatigue, low-grade fever, headache, or red eyes several days before the rash appears. These symptoms are more common in adults than in children.
Swollen, tender lymph nodes may occur in the back of the neck.
The rash is light red to pink. It starts as individual spots that may merge together over time. The rash usually starts on the face and moves down to the trunk.
The rash does not usually itch, but as it clears up, the skin may shed.
Adult women who get rubella may get painful joints for days to weeks after the infection. This typically affects the hands, wrists, and knees.
Symptoms may be so mild that they are not even noticed, especially in children. Most symptoms resolve in a few days, but swollen lymph nodes may persist for a few weeks.
The most feared complication of rubella is "congenital rubella," which occurs when an infected pregnant woman passes the virus to her unborn child. Among other problems and birth defects, affected infants may have cataracts, heart defects, hearing impairment, and learning disabilities. The risk of transmission is highest early in pregnancy. The virus may also cause miscarriage or stillbirth. Continue Reading
AnnieA, Roseola isn't Measles. It's 6th Disease and very common, there isn't a vaccine for it. As for Rubella (German Measles), very true it was horrific for the fetus of pregnant women. I remember when I was in 4th grade and in the hospital for appendicitis, there was a little girl in my ward room who's mother had contracted German Measles when she was pregnant with her. Being young, I didn't know all that was wrong with the child but she was there for multiple operations. If I recall correctly she was deaf, among other things, but I recall my mother speaking to her mom and she was there that time for kidney issues.
There is a certain segment of the public that is simply ignorant. These are people who don't read and rely mostly on gossip and innuendo for information. This group is highly susceptible to propaganda coming from the most vociferous person, or the most attractive because they lack a means to truly evaluate and assess information in a qualitative manner. The emotion that drives much of their lives is "fear". Sadly, I know young families like this in my own church.
That's the thing with these people though, is that they don't trust the sources that are supportive of the benefits of vaccines. No matter how much proof you give them, they're not going to believe it. Nothing will convince them other than a return to the prior high-rate deaths of children with these diseases; then maybe just maybe they may want the vaccines back. It will be sad but I fear that it may come to that. Maybe the only good thing to come out of it is that there will be a greater appreciation of one's children (they won't be considered so much a burden as it seems so many are) when the chances are higher that they won't survive to adulthood, like how it was for most of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by markg91359
If you don't believe in vaccinating your kid than do the rest of us a favor: Don't engage in public demonstrations. Don't picket the CDC. Don't go on television with make-believe stories. Keep quiet and keep your beliefs to yourself.
However these people don't know they're ignorant; they believe that they have better knowledge than others and that is what makes them want to publicize their beliefs.
I don't think this means that vaccine promoters should stop their efforts, just don't get exasperated when it doesn't have a large effect because it most likely will not. It will effect those who do not have prior anti-vaccination beliefs and those are the people that their promotions should target. Deep-rooted anti-vaxxers are a lost cause. You won't get them to change their minds by showing them studies.
You do not understand what the CDC link said. That is the problem. Smallpox vaccine cannot cause smallpox because it does not contain smallpox virus. The virus it does contain can be spread to others. That is why precautions must be observed by people who have been vaccinated.
It spreads from vaccinated people. That was my point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
If your child needs a physical exam to play a sport at school, should the government pay for that?
The government doesn't mandate a physical exam. The school requires it so like school supplies, I have to pay for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Seat belts, air bags, and child restraints can and do cause injuries in accidents. It is rather absurd to insist they do not.
Go sit in your car right now and put your seat belt on. Then take it off. Then put it on again. Did you get injured? I had a cousin who was injured in an accident to the point where she had to learn to walk, speak, eat... all over again. The doctor said it was caused by the seat belt. Had it not been for the seat belt, she would have been thrown from the car (through the windshield) with broken bones or death. The risk of injury is not FROM the seat belt as you can see when you repeatedly use it in your non moving car. The risk is from the accident you get into. No accident... No injury. I am flabbergasted that I have to explain THAT to you but you think you know ALL there is about vaccines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
The risk that an injury will occur due to automobile safety features does indeed exist as soon as the decision to use the feature is made. It seems you have no concept of what the word risk means.
No one denies that vaccines carry risks. They are just vanishingly small, and much lower than the risks of the diseases they prevent - just as the risk of using a car seat for your baby is much less than the risk of not doing so.
Concept of risk? See above.
"vanishingly small" - first, I don't think "vanishingly" is even a word. second, it's like you think that those injured just vanish because you refuse to even listen to their stories while you will listen to the stories of people who were deathly ill (yet recovered) with these childhood illnesses (which is why you advocate vaccinations in the first place). This isn't just an arm hurting at the injection site. They are damaged for life. But I guess they were nice enough to take one for society so let society pay for their medical care for the rest of their lives and just ignore them. Makes sense.
Where there is risk there should be choice when it comes to medical procedures.
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