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So 30% of patients had side effects... Sounds really harsh.
So only pregnant women... meaning that if those people were immune (had the disease) then the were not a threat nor were the people that just had it. So the rash just told people that the disease was present... OK...
Measles is a benign disease that resolves after a few weeks if that. So again the question is... why have a vaccine for it when other rashes go untreated.
Yes, "only" 30%. 30% is huge, epidemiologically. That's what's so frustrating about trying to educate people. Take a classroom full of 30 kids, 27 of whom have had measles (90%). That means 8 of them, on average, had complications. That's the way it was, pre-vaccine. Oh, some got "lucky" and only had diarrhea, which BTW, is more than just having a loose stool as some AVs seem to think. Some had hearing loss, vision loss, brain damage and pneumonia. The funny thing, and I mean this both ways, ironic and laughable, is that anti-vaxers get so worked up over the vanishingly small possibility of a side effect from the vaccine, yet they dismiss a complication rate from the disease of 30% as "trivial". Even the most common side effect of MMR vaccine, fever, only affects 1 in 6 vaccinnees, or 16%, about half of the complication rate of the disease (which also includes fever in close to 100%).
In reference to rubella, the biggest concern is with pregnant women. Contrary to popular opinion among anti-vaxers, unlike some of the other "usual childhood diseases" as they used to be called, not everyone got rubella. About 15% of women of childbearing age were not immune at the time of pregnancy, pre-vaccine, leading to disastrous results in some cases. The thing with rubella, too, is that it is very mild, some people don't even know they have it, but they can spread it anyway.
Rash is one of the diagnostic criteria for many diseases.
1. Measles is not a benign disease, no matter how many times you say so.
2. There are vaccines for other rash diseases, and some are in development. See below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Fifth disease is usually mild in kids but can be awful in adults, with prolonged joint pain. There is a thread here on CD about adults with it. The virus can cause a condition called hydrops in the fetus if mom gets it during pregnancy and there is a 10% risk of miscarriage. It can also cause problems for people with some chronic anemias.
<snip>
If you are not sure of the difference between fifth disease and measles perhaps you should not be playing Dr. Mom.
<snip>
Measles is not a benign disease. it can cause severe disabilities and death, which is why there is a vaccine for it.
Didn't know that about Fifth Disease (re: bold). That's what I get for focusing so much on pediatrics! Good to know.
I did know about the complications of pregnancy, which is why kids with 5th disease should stay away from pg women. Fortunately, most adults have had Fifth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
You learn something every day on here. I never knew that a pregnant woman, who is herself immune to measles, can still pass on measles to her unborn if exposed. Wow. Why did they even bother to test the blood of pregnant women for Rubella antibodies? Would not have made any difference anyway. ONLY if these diseases are totally eradicated in society will immune pregnant women not pass them on to their fetuses.
Once again, the ONLY immunity is from vaccines when there is vaccinated Herd Immunity. lol
There is some confusion about that. If a pg woman is immune to rubella, her baby will not be affected. Now before someone comes on here and posts a cite about some weird one-time incident where that has happened, let me qualify that by saying it that's the general situation. Certainly pg women should avoid getting exposed to anything if they can. Herd immunity is achieved by vaccination and natural disease. I'm part of the "herd" that is naturally immune to many diseases, being unfortunate enough to have had them.
How about - NO! Do you have any idea of how many serious and potentially deadly diseases you can get from people who don't wash their hands? No, of course you don't. You live in a fairy tale world.
You still didn't answer my question about whether or not you'd be comfortable with that. But from your answer, I assume you'd eat rotten food, allow people to serve you food with crap on it, and you don't bother to refrigerate anything because you have no control over things like that. And I guess you think you lead a charmed life because you aren't going to get sick from any of that.
The fairy tale world is the one where you think you can control people washing their hands. How many times do you inspect the kitchens when you eat out? Do you inspect the employees hands for fecal matter?
You seem to think you live in a bubble but you don't. We are exposed to all sorts of nastiness form all sorts of sources. I just had pizza delivered and didn't ask if the kitchen was clean or if their staff washed their hands regularly...
One time I had a frozen pizza with a hair baked into the crust. Gross! But I suppose you would get the no-hair-in-my-pizza vaccine so that would never happen to you.
Yes, "only" 30%. 30% is huge, epidemiologically. That's what's so frustrating about trying to educate people. Take a classroom full of 30 kids, 27 of whom have had measles (90%). That means 8 of them, on average, had complications. That's the way it was, pre-vaccine. Oh, some got "lucky" and only had diarrhea, which BTW, is more than just having a loose stool as some AVs seem to think. Some had hearing loss, vision loss, brain damage and pneumonia. The funny thing, and I mean this both ways, ironic and laughable, is that anti-vaxers get so worked up over the vanishingly small possibility of a side effect from the vaccine, yet they dismiss a complication rate from the disease of 30% as "trivial". Even the most common side effect of MMR vaccine, fever, only affects 1 in 6 vaccinnees, or 16%, about half of the complication rate of the disease (which also includes fever in close to 100%).
In reference to rubella, the biggest concern is with pregnant women. Contrary to popular opinion among anti-vaxers, unlike some of the other "usual childhood diseases" as they used to be called, not everyone got rubella. About 15% of women of childbearing age were not immune at the time of pregnancy, pre-vaccine, leading to disastrous results in some cases. The thing with rubella, too, is that it is very mild, some people don't even know they have it, but they can spread it anyway.
Rash is one of the diagnostic criteria for many diseases.
1. Measles is not a benign disease, no matter how many times you say so.
2. There are vaccines for other rash diseases, and some are in development. See below.
Didn't know that about Fifth Disease (re: bold). That's what I get for focusing so much on pediatrics! Good to know.
I did know about the complications of pregnancy, which is why kids with 5th disease should stay away from pg women. Fortunately, most adults have had Fifth.
There is some confusion about that. If a pg woman is immune to rubella, her baby will not be affected. Now before someone comes on here and posts a cite about some weird one-time incident where that has happened, let me qualify that by saying it that's the general situation. Certainly pg women should avoid getting exposed to anything if they can. Herd immunity is achieved by vaccination and natural disease. I'm part of the "herd" that is naturally immune to many diseases, being unfortunate enough to have had them.
So it's fortunate that most adults have had Fifth but unfortunate that they are naturally immune? Interesting.
It's okay to lose a few people due to vaccines but not okay to lose a few people to disease?
BTW... according to popular television before vaccines, no one feared these diseases. Remember the disease checklist the Brady's had... Don't fall for all the hype. You can use the Wayback Machine to see the changes to sites like WHO and CDC. Every year childhood diseases get scarier and scarier.
Measles complications are more likely in malnourished children (lacking vitamin A especially) and adults over 20. Why would you vaccinate for measles as a child then have it wane during adulthood when it would likely cause more complications? Doesn't make sense to me. Why not help all the kids in the world have clean water and nourishing food so they can avoid complications and be immune as adults?
So it's fortunate that most adults have had Fifth but unfortunate that they are naturally immune? Interesting.
It's okay to lose a few people due to vaccines but not okay to lose a few people to disease?
BTW... according to popular television before vaccines, no one feared these diseases. Remember the disease checklist the Brady's had... Don't fall for all the hype. You can use the Wayback Machine to see the changes to sites like WHO and CDC. Every year childhood diseases get scarier and scarier.
Measles complications are more likely in malnourished children (lacking vitamin A especially) and adults over 20. Why would you vaccinate for measles as a child then have it wane during adulthood when it would likely cause more complications? Doesn't make sense to me. Why not help all the kids in the world have clean water and nourishing food so they can avoid complications and be immune as adults?
Where did I say that it's unfortunate that most are naturally immune? In fact, I said " Fortunately, most adults have had Fifth." Fortunate, b/c most women in our society anyway have more than one child. It's possible for the child to get 5th Disease while the mom is pregnant w/child #2 or 3 or whatever. But as suzy_q2010 posted, some pregnant women do get Fifth Disease while pregnant and have a miscarriage.
The number of deaths from vaccines is infinitesimal, too small for an actual statistic to be computed. The death rates for the diseases we vaccinate against are well known and in general, high. There's also the complication rate. The death rate from polio was fairly low, (take note of that word in the blue italics), but the paralysis and complication rate much larger. Even so, my husband lost a cousin to polio back in the early 50s, probably in the big epidemic of 1952.
For Pity's Sake, anyone who gets their medical knowledge from popular TV needs to find a new source. TV writers seem notoriously stupid about many things. I really shouldn't have to tell you that.
Measles vaccination does not, in general, wane. The original immunizees of the first live vaccine in 1963 are considered immune. Clean water does nothing to prevent measles. Measles, for the nth time, is airborne.
I think we can work on more than one problem at a time, e.g. clean water and immunization. It's far better to prevent disease than it is to try to prevent complications. Clean water and good food will NOT give one immunity.
NOT pregnant women - their unborn kids! A woman can have had measles and be immune, but if she is pregnant and is exposed to measles, she could still miscarry if measles is passed to her fetus. Or in the case of German measles, she might have a deformed child. I just can't understand how you can't understand that?
Just for clarification, a pregnant woman who is immune to rubella will not catch the virus. Her baby is protected. Every pregnant woman is tested for antibodies to rubella. If she does not have a protective antibody level, she is offered the vaccine after the baby is born. The same can be done with chickenpox, by the way. Ideally, however, the antibody titers for both of those will be done before the woman gets pregnant so she can take the vaccine and be protected during the pregnancy.
Some people do not respond well to vaccines. For measles vaccine, variations in a certain gene may be responsible. For some diseases, including rubella, the test used to measure the antibody level may just not be sensitive enough, and the patient is truly immune. Two documented doses of MMR vaccine is enough and the vaccine does not need to be repeated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jo48
Once again, the ONLY immunity is from vaccines when there is vaccinated Herd Immunity. lol
Bless your little heart, you just do not get the concept that immunity can happen after either infection or vaccination, but with vaccination it is not necessary to be sick, perhaps deathly ill, first. You can "lol" all you want, but repeating this little mantra over and over does not convince us that you know what you are talking about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj
So it's fortunate that most adults have had Fifth but unfortunate that they are naturally immune? Interesting.
It's okay to lose a few people due to vaccines but not okay to lose a few people to disease?
BTW... according to popular television before vaccines, no one feared these diseases. Remember the disease checklist the Brady's had... Don't fall for all the hype. You can use the Wayback Machine to see the changes to sites like WHO and CDC. Every year childhood diseases get scarier and scarier.
Measles complications are more likely in malnourished children (lacking vitamin A especially) and adults over 20. Why would you vaccinate for measles as a child then have it wane during adulthood when it would likely cause more complications? Doesn't make sense to me. Why not help all the kids in the world have clean water and nourishing food so they can avoid complications and be immune as adults?
No one said that it's unfortunate that most are immune to fifth disease. Where do you get that?
As has been pointed out, the risk of vaccine preventable diseases is much higher than the risks of vaccines. You are using a logical fallacy called false equivalency and insisting that just as many (or more) people are harmed by vaccines as are harmed by the disease they prevent. That is not true.
Trivializing the risks of vaccine preventable diseases does not work either.
Vitamin A supplementation decreases the number of deaths from measles. It does not totally prevent complications, though. As you have repeatedly been told, "natural" immunity to measles is not as good as immunity from the vaccine. Having measles damages the immune system, causing it to lose its memory of other infectious diseases for which there was immunity before getting measles. There is also the risk of SSPE a few years down the road, which is fatal. Measles causes death and disability in children, not just adults. You continue to show us just how little you know about the disease.
Where did I say that it's unfortunate that most are naturally immune? In fact, I said " Fortunately, most adults have had Fifth." Fortunate, b/c most women in our society anyway have more than one child. It's possible for the child to get 5th Disease while the mom is pregnant w/child #2 or 3 or whatever. But as suzy_q2010 posted, some pregnant women do get Fifth Disease while pregnant and have a miscarriage.
The number of deaths from vaccines is infinitesimal, too small for an actual statistic to be computed. The death rates for the diseases we vaccinate against are well known and in general, high. There's also the complication rate. The death rate from polio was fairly low, (take note of that word in the blue italics), but the paralysis and complication rate much larger. Even so, my husband lost a cousin to polio back in the early 50s, probably in the big epidemic of 1952.
I have a friend who did not grow up in the US and had polio. She's short... maybe 5 foot? That's what she has had to endure. I suppose she could have been 6 foot tall but nope... had polio. Even according to the CDC.. LESS THAN 1% of people who contract polio have paralytic polio. Do you really think the risk of 1% warrants a vaccine?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
For Pity's Sake, anyone who gets their medical knowledge from popular TV needs to find a new source. TV writers seem notoriously stupid about many things. I really shouldn't have to tell you that.
The reference was to the cultural attitude at that time not for medical advice. The fictional Brady family thought measles was just a disease they crossed off the list of childhood illnesses. Not something to be feared or avoided. Again.. do your research and check the CDC, WHO, and FDA websites via the Wayback Machine to see that these diseases are updated every year as more horrible and deadly. Before the internet, the TV show (and other TV shows) depict this disease as normal and harmless in most children.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
Measles vaccination does not, in general, wane. The original immunizees of the first live vaccine in 1963 are considered immune. Clean water does nothing to prevent measles. Measles, for the nth time, is airborne.
The MMR is effective in (maybe) 95% of people and yet we see many more than 5% of people that are vaccinated infected with measles. It wanes. The protection only lasts so long. Meanwhile, scientists (yes those you would approve of) are developing a means of using measles to combat cancer. So YOU say that measles is a BAD disease but being a virus it targets weak cells and cells that multiply quickly. Once it infects those cells it destroys them. This is the basis for the cancer cure with measles.
So then we see that children are becoming ill with cancer at an alarming rate but they are vaccinated against the very disease that could have wiped out the cancerous cells to begin with. Don't you think there is something missing? Would you rather your child have a self-limiting disease (in healthy children) or cancer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt
I think we can work on more than one problem at a time, e.g. clean water and immunization. It's far better to prevent disease than it is to try to prevent complications. Clean water and good food will NOT give one immunity.
There is no harm in clean water and better food. If fact... you are probably for having the premium grade oil and gas for your car so that it runs for longer but when it comes to overall health (immunity) you think that clean water and good food won't help? Please! Think! Giving kids around the world the proper food and clean water would go a long way toward combating disease moreso than any vaccination.
BTW vaccines wane which means vaccination does NOT equal immunization. There is only natural immunity as immunization.
Herd immunity is achieved by vaccination and natural disease. I'm part of the "herd" that is naturally immune to many diseases, being unfortunate enough to have had them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
No one said that it's unfortunate that most are immune to fifth disease. Where do you get that?
See Katarina's quotes above... Click to read the whole thing. She said that it was fortunate that most adults have had fifths yet unfortunate that she is naturally immune (having had the diseases). So it's great that most kids get fifths without issue so that most adult pregnant women are protected but unfortunate that most kids are subjected to fifths disease. That makes no sense. My son had a red face (looked like slapped cheeks) and a mild fever. We really need a vaccine for this for kids so that pregnant women will be MORE susceptible to it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
As has been pointed out, the risk of vaccine preventable diseases is much higher than the risks of vaccines. You are using a logical fallacy called false equivalency and insisting that just as many (or more) people are harmed by vaccines as are harmed by the disease they prevent. That is not true.
Trivializing the risks of vaccine preventable diseases does not work either.
I'm not sure you realize this so I will reiterate it... I live in the USA. Even before the vaccine, the risk of dying from CHILDHOOD diseases was very low. You would be more prone to dying from the common cold. Even if you lived in Sudan...malaria, health, and other causes are more prevalent. Still.. if we took all the vaccine dollars and put them toward helping those countries improve food and water quality, the outcome for CHILDHOOD disease complications would not exist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010
Vitamin A supplementation decreases the number of deaths from measles. It does not totally prevent complications, though. As you have repeatedly been told, "natural" immunity to measles is not as good as immunity from the vaccine. Having measles damages the immune system, causing it to lose its memory of other infectious diseases for which there was immunity before getting measles. There is also the risk of SSPE a few years down the road, which is fatal. Measles causes death and disability in children, not just adults. You continue to show us just how little you know about the disease.
Again.. I live in the USA. Complications would be avoided if vitamin A levels were adequate and immune systems were healthy. The fact that measles is being used to combat cancer is telling. If all kids are allowed to have measles then maybe the incidents of cancer in kids would be lower. SSPE is RARE and can be caused by the vaccine itself. Interestingly the symptoms of SSPE are also those that the victims of the HPV vaccine exhibit. I wonder what is going on here?
The insert does not state that the HPV vaccine causes birth defects and miscarriages:
"The overall proportions of pregnancies that resulted in an adverse outcome, defined as the combined
numbers of spontaneous abortion, late fetal death, and congenital anomaly cases out of the total number
of pregnancy outcomes for which an outcome was known (and excluding elective terminations), were
22.6% (446/1973) in women who received GARDASIL and 23.1% (460/1994) in women who received
AAHS control or saline placebo."
Quote:
I have a friend who did not grow up in the US and had polio. She's short... maybe 5 foot? That's what she has had to endure. I suppose she could have been 6 foot tall but nope... had polio. Even according to the CDC.. LESS THAN 1% of people who contract polio have paralytic polio. Do you really think the risk of 1% warrants a vaccine?
Yes, the risk of paralytic polio justifies the vaccine. Your experience with one person who had polio hardly qualifies you as an expert on the subject.
Quote:
The reference was to the cultural attitude at that time not for medical advice. The fictional Brady family thought measles was just a disease they crossed off the list of childhood illnesses. Not something to be feared or avoided. Again.. do your research and check the CDC, WHO, and FDA websites via the Wayback Machine to see that these diseases are updated every year as more horrible and deadly. Before the internet, the TV show (and other TV shows) depict this disease as normal and harmless in most children.
Perhaps you might want to consider that a TV show is hardly the best source for information on vaccine preventable diseases.
Quote:
The MMR is effective in (maybe) 95% of people and yet we see many more than 5% of people that are vaccinated infected with measles. It wanes. The protection only lasts so long.
Immunity due to measles vaccine does not wane. It is lifelong, and safer than immunity from having the disease.
Quote:
Meanwhile, scientists (yes those you would approve of) are developing a means of using measles to combat cancer. So YOU say that measles is a BAD disease but being a virus it targets weak cells and cells that multiply quickly. Once it infects those cells it destroys them. This is the basis for the cancer cure with measles.
Yes, there is research using measles virus to treat certain cancers, but it is measles virus that has been genetically altered.
"This treatment did not involve a standard measles vaccine or virus – the researchers used a genetically modified virus, and there’s no evidence that the regular measles or MMR jab can cure, prevent or cause any type of cancer."
"It’s also important to note that the measles virus approach won’t work for all cancers. Myeloma was chosen for this trial as the measles virus specifically targets the bone marrow. It would need significant genetic modifications before it could be persuaded to attack other types of cancer cells, and other oncolytic viruses are being designed to target different types of cancer."
Quote:
So then we see that children are becoming ill with cancer at an alarming rate but they are vaccinated against the very disease that could have wiped out the cancerous cells to begin with. Don't you think there is something missing? Would you rather your child have a self-limiting disease (in healthy children) or cancer?
No, having measles will not prevent or treat cancer. In fact, infectious diseases are one of the top killers of children with cancer.
Quote:
There is no harm in clean water and better food. If fact... you are probably for having the premium grade oil and gas for your car so that it runs for longer but when it comes to overall health (immunity) you think that clean water and good food won't help? Please! Think! Giving kids around the world the proper food and clean water would go a long way toward combating disease more so than any vaccination
Clean water and adequate nutrition are important, but vaccine preventable diseases still infect people in countries with clean water and adequate nutrition if vaccination levels fall. When third world countries increase vaccination levels against measles, child mortality drops drastically, even with no change in other standards of living.
"Our results show that when measles was common, MV [measles virus] infections could have been implicated in as many as half of all childhood deaths from infectious disease, thus accounting for nearly all of the interannual fluctuations in childhood infectious disease deaths. The reduction of MV infections was the main factor in reducing overall childhood infectious disease mortality after the introduction of vaccination."
Quote:
BTW vaccines wane which means vaccination does NOT equal immunization. There is only natural immunity as immunization.
Vaccine protection does not always wane. Two doses of measles vaccine produce lifelong immunity in 95 to 98% of those who receive it. Not all vaccines need boosters. For those that do, so what? Why to the anti-vaxxers get so bent out of shape over the concept of boosters?
See Katarina's quotes above... Click to read the whole thing. She said that it was fortunate that most adults have had fifths yet unfortunate that she is naturally immune (having had the diseases). So it's great that most kids get fifths without issue so that most adult pregnant women are protected but unfortunate that most kids are subjected to fifths disease. That makes no sense. My son had a red face (looked like slapped cheeks) and a mild fever. We really need a vaccine for this for kids so that pregnant women will be MORE susceptible to it?
What she said was that it was unfortunate that she had to get sick to become immune to those diseases she had before vaccine were available for them. You are so busy trying to make it look like she said something she didn't that you apparently cannot even read what she did say.
If we had a vaccine for parvovirus B19 women who were not immune could be vaccinated prior to pregnancy. Vaccinating children would reduce the risk, too. It's called herd immunity.
Quote:
I'm not sure you realize this so I will reiterate it... I live in the USA. Even before the vaccine, the risk of dying from CHILDHOOD diseases was very low. You would be more prone to dying from the common cold. Even if you lived in Sudan...malaria, health, and other causes are more prevalent. Still.. if we took all the vaccine dollars and put them toward helping those countries improve food and water quality, the outcome for CHILDHOOD disease complications would not exist.
You still do not understand the concept of risk. No, before vaccines were available more people did not die of colds than died from the vaccine preventable diseases.
As I showed in my previous post, measles damages the immune system. By preventing measles with the vaccine, you reduce not only deaths due to measles but deaths due to other infections because the measles virus wiped out immune memory for those diseases. That effect happens everywhere measles vaccine is used, but it is even more dramatic in poor countries without the resources the US has.
Quote:
Again.. I live in the USA. Complications would be avoided if vitamin A levels were adequate and immune systems were healthy. The fact that measles is being used to combat cancer is telling. If all kids are allowed to have measles then maybe the incidents of cancer in kids would be lower. SSPE is RARE and can be caused by the vaccine itself. Interestingly the symptoms of SSPE are also those that the victims of the HPV vaccine exhibit. I wonder what is going on here?
Wild measles virus is not being used to treat cancer. It is an attenuated, genetically modified version. Having measles will not prevent children from having cancer. The measles vaccine does not cause SSPE. SSPE in vaccinated people has been shown to be due to wild virus.
"Children with vaccine-induced measles can develop any of the known complications of natural infection except SSPE. In developed countries with scant or no endemic measles, SSPE has disappeared together with the disappearance of measles. Cases of SSPE among measles vaccinated children, when studied, are found to be due to wild type measles infection ..."
HPV vaccine does not cause symptoms like those of SSPE, which is pretty uniformly fatal. In fact, the HPV vaccine is turning out to be extremely safe and effective.
The fairy tale world is the one where you think you can control people washing their hands. How many times do you inspect the kitchens when you eat out? Do you inspect the employees hands for fecal matter?
You seem to think you live in a bubble but you don't. We are exposed to all sorts of nastiness form all sorts of sources. I just had pizza delivered and didn't ask if the kitchen was clean or if their staff washed their hands regularly...
One time I had a frozen pizza with a hair baked into the crust. Gross! But I suppose you would get the no-hair-in-my-pizza vaccine so that would never happen to you.
Food delivery, or just eating out, good reason for Hep A vaccine which is not even on the schedule. Just saying.
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