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Hamas was democratically elected by the people of Gaza. Israel has absolutely no interest to enter Gaza again, it will not bring any good.
Hamas was democratically elected as the majority of the Legislative Council and not the leadership of Gaza. Hamas is a illegal gov't created by a coup that removed Fatah from leadership in that area. Israel should have given that sliver of land to Egypt along with the Sinai when the Treaty was penned.
"Palestinians" have been offered a legit state of their own on at least 3 different occasions, and have turned it down every single time.
This conflict isn't about a Palestinian state, its about the arab fantasy that there should be 0 zero jews in the mideast.
And they would still be at war with their neighbors. Muslims have attempted to conquer, quite successfully, most of the middle East and form Islamic Republics and Kingdoms where ever they go. Having a Jewish state among them is like a cancer to them. They can't have it. They can't handle living under Atheists, Jews, Christians, Hindus, Kurds, and even other Muslim sects.
If the State of Israel ceased to exist tomorrow the area would turn into another Iraq, Libya, Yemen or some other hell hole.
Zionism (Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת, IPA: [t͡sijo̞ˈnut], translit. Tziyonut, after Zion) is a nationalist and political movement of Jews and Jewish culture that supports the re-establishment of a Jewish homeland in the territory defined as the historic Land of Israel
Israel does not need to be re-established. It's existed since 1948. Zionism still exists because every single minute of every single day Jews have to work at existing throughout each day. What other nation has to fight on a daily basis just to exist?
If that's all you got out of what I said, then I guess the discussion is over. You're not hear to discuss. I'll just tell you what you want to hear: You're always right! Go get a cookie from the jar; you earned it. I'll put a gold star on your chart. Now go play outside you little rascal!
I don't know. I'm not a military strategist. But I'd consider using a weapon that a bit more precise to avoid civilian killings. I accept that they probably will happen from time to time, but to simply drop a bomb on a school is morally reprehensible.
Frankly, I think declaring open war on Palestine and taking out Hamas would be a better decision. It might end the conflict sooner. However, the only goal should be to take out Hamas and establish a peaceful relationship. If that is the goal, it will be hard to get everyone on board. The US won't be happy because peace in the Middle East isn't profitable, and Europe won't get on board with something that radical. And of course, there's the assumption that without Hamas, everything will be hunky dory.
Radical Islam is a hyper conservative reaction to Western Influence. Like all hyper conservative reactions, time is the only thing that will heal it. But it requires the problem to stop, which as long as the US baby sits the Middle East, against nearly everyone in the Middle East's wishes, the problems will persist.
you are right on one point. I am not hear to discuss the issue.
I am here to say that any attempt to suggest a beleaguered and attacked nation that has been invaded multiple times, that has lived under constant terror attack for more than a generation is the gulty party because in the middle of fighting for their every existence they have had some excesses is an insane idea.
Personally I will not budge on that one iota. not an inch. not a millimeter. until this is the context of all discussions.
The world should be on the palistinians and the muslim world demanding they stop with the constant attacks, with the calls for the destruction of Israel as a nation, with the general.
if the Palestine authority would do that and Israel refused to live at peace then I would be willing to discuss Israeli excesses.
put this in context.
If Mexico were to start lobbing bombs at America and calling for the destruction of our nation and training their kids to come over here and blow themselves up in crowds of Americans,
I would call for the utter annihilation of Mexico, the annexation of its lands and the re-education or the survivors. period end of discussion.
for Israel we have a different standard.
They have to just sit and take it. watch their kids die and smile and be nice. oh we don't say much if they build some system that shoots oown rockets, but when they go after the rocketeers the whacked out Eruos and their American counterparts get all breathless about imagined war crimes.
If that's all you got out of what I said, then I guess the discussion is over. You're not hear to discuss. I'll just tell you what you want to hear: You're always right! Go get a cookie from the jar; you earned it. I'll put a gold star on your chart. Now go play outside you little rascal!
I don't know. I'm not a military strategist. But I'd consider using a weapon that a bit more precise to avoid civilian killings. I accept that they probably will happen from time to time, but to simply drop a bomb on a school is morally reprehensible.
Frankly, I think declaring open war on Palestine and taking out Hamas would be a better decision. It might end the conflict sooner. However, the only goal should be to take out Hamas and establish a peaceful relationship. If that is the goal, it will be hard to get everyone on board. The US won't be happy because peace in the Middle East isn't profitable, and Europe won't get on board with something that radical. And of course, there's the assumption that without Hamas, everything will be hunky dory.
Radical Islam is a hyper conservative reaction to Western Influence. Like all hyper conservative reactions, time is the only thing that will heal it. But it requires the problem to stop, which as long as the US baby sits the Middle East, against nearly everyone in the Middle East's wishes, the problems will persist.
"Radical Islam is a hyper conservative reaction to Western Influence"
Just a recent reaction to the West huh? How about the East, North and South, and every continent on earth with the exception of Antarctica as evidenced by the many Islamic Terrorist organizations on this planet today. How about 1400 years of uninterrupted war against their fellow Muslims, then Kurds, Hindus, Sikhs, Bahá'í, and Buddhist How about 1400 years of uninterrupted Slavery that exists to this day. The West is responsible for Radical Islam right.
The Hadith requires all muslims to wage jihad against any people that are not muslim that take control of lands that have ever been muslim.
The Hadith states that when the Al Mahdi returns (their final leader at the end of the world) he will set up his Caliphate in Jerusalem.
THESE are the reasons muslims seek to destroy Israel. they will not stop. There is no reasoning with them.
Surely, all Muslims don't believe that, there are some crazy sects...I don't know what to call it-Just as there are some who believe the only good Muslim is a dead one.
Bombing a school is still bombing a school. I'm not denying that Palestine fired rockets from schools. They did. And Israel has every right to react. Their reaction killed innocent children, and that's still wrong. There isn't a qualifier to that. It's always wrong to bomb schools or hospitals. There aren't exceptions to that, and I don't really think that's an unreasonable thing to say.
Your opinion is puzzling and contradicts itself. The missiles being fired from the school were aimed at Israeli schools, hospitals, houses, and other civilian facilities. Given that fact, you are saying that Israel should allow its schools, etc. to be attacked and destroyed because in order to end those attacks Israel would have to attack the source of the missile firing - which is a school.
In effect you're saying that Israel has to choose to permit its schools to be destroyed so that the Arab school is not destroyed. Get it? That's totally unreasonable. No country in the world would make that choice and should not be expected to make that choice.
Israel uses missiles to protect its children.
The "palestinians" use children to protect their missiles.
Hard subject, let's establish one fact, there is a big difference between disliking what Israel as a country does and a dislike of Jewish people. WE should know Israel was formed due to the fact European countries would mot absorb the victims of The Holocaust, to add to that Canada and The United states would not absorb the Jewish people, which resulted in the formation of Israel as a country.
Can one oppose the actions of Israel towards the Palestinians & other Middle East Arab Countries, but not hold antisemitic views?
Are the two interchangeable words?
Thoughts on this matter: I don't approve of people's homes bull dozed and access to water and medical services being restricted.
Europe has long, deep seated anti-semetic views.
While you can absolutely be anti-Zionist and not anti-semetic there are huge swaths of Europe ESPECIALLY eastern Europe that are horribly racist and nationalistic.
I think the part you are missing is that Israel is at war with Hamas, Syria, Palestine etc. You probably have sympathy towards the Palestinians which is understandable to anyone caught in a war but the reality is that they are sympathetic because they are LOSING and the victor is easy to see as the bad-guy.
Had Israel lost the wars back in the day they'd have been slaughtered and wouldn't even be around today to be a sympathetic case, they'd just be a historical footnote.
There is no "good guy" in the Israel conflict. Both sides have their extremists and do bad things to their rivals.
Frankly, I would hope you would ALSO oppose the actions of the Palestinians and other middle eastern countries against Israel as well but won't hold my breath.
P.S. I think the Pals kill more Pals than Israel but that's not top news. Read up on their power struggles?
Israel is doing much more than any other military in history to minimize civilian killings, because of it's moral values and because Israel knows about the double standards of "the world."
Hamas was democratically elected by the people of Gaza. Israel has absolutely no interest to enter Gaza again, it will not bring any good.
It's not a double standard. Being 'the good guys' doesn't make bombing children or sick people less immoral. And it's political bias that creates responses like yours. Criticizing Israel for doing something wrong is not an endorsement of Palestine because that's just not how the world works. It's unintelligent to think this way. It's not even thinking. Calling it thought is giving undeserved credit.
And I know there's very little Israel can do. Again, Hamas and other radical Islamic groups exist as a conservative reaction to an outside influence. That's how these things work. The mentality that Hamas has isn't a new one by any means, but it's got the influence it has now for political reasons. Israel isn't even responsible for those reasons, albeit, the reasons are a byproduct of Israel existing. But there is absolutely a way for Israel to exist and radical Islam to cease having political control, but it can't happen when countries like the US breathing down everyone's neck in the name of 'liberty.'
Of course Palestine needs a cultural change, but the currently military attitudes are not conductive to that change. The US of course needs conflict in order to stay in the Middle East. The US government has a vested interest in doing this. And this 'Israel can do no harm' mentality is extremely helpful to this cause, as is the Palestinian victimization complex is, though to a slightly lesser extent. But until we start recognizing this as two state with logical and some valid reasons for doing what they do instead of abstract representations of good and evil, the problem will never be resolved.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd
you are right on one point. I am not hear to discuss the issue.
I am here to say that any attempt to suggest a beleaguered and attacked nation that has been invaded multiple times, that has lived under constant terror attack for more than a generation is the gulty party because in the middle of fighting for their every existence they have had some excesses is an insane idea.
Personally I will not budge on that one iota. not an inch. not a millimeter. until this is the context of all discussions.
The world should be on the palistinians and the muslim world demanding they stop with the constant attacks, with the calls for the destruction of Israel as a nation, with the general.
if the Palestine authority would do that and Israel refused to live at peace then I would be willing to discuss Israeli excesses.
put this in context.
If Mexico were to start lobbing bombs at America and calling for the destruction of our nation and training their kids to come over here and blow themselves up in crowds of Americans,
I would call for the utter annihilation of Mexico, the annexation of its lands and the re-education or the survivors. period end of discussion.
for Israel we have a different standard.
They have to just sit and take it. watch their kids die and smile and be nice. oh we don't say much if they build some system that shoots oown rockets, but when they go after the rocketeers the whacked out Eruos and their American counterparts get all breathless about imagined war crimes.
So, you'll only be willing to discuss if everyone in the discussion already agrees with you. That says a lot about your intellectual development. You essentially want me to give you a reach around while we're 'discussing' this, and I simply refuse to do that. You've already spent time accusing my of believing something I don't, which is that Israel is evil, which already proves that you're coming here not discuss, but to moan about your outspoken views. I have no desire to feed your delusions of grandeur.
I'm open to discussion. I've stated that it's morally wrong to kill innocent people, regardless of circumstance, and I sighted Israel's bombing of schools as an example. You've immediately jumped on the assumption, because of your overpowering political bias, that I'm saying Israel is pure evil attacking defenseless Palestine, which isn't what I'm saying at all. Palestine also kills innocent people, and it's just as morally reprehensible. So does the US. But when your response carries the intellectual strength of a 8 year old screaming 'he started it' on a playground, I have no interest or desire to even counter those points. I don't feel a need to prove I don't have Israel to you, one because I didn't actually give you a reason to think that I did, but also because I don't think you'd be able to or are willing to grasp what I was saying anyone because it would be me saying it, and not yourself.
If you become interested in having an actual discussion, by all means let me know. But if this is just gonna be you screaming your assumptions about my political philosophy at me, I think I'll pass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LS Jaun
"Radical Islam is a hyper conservative reaction to Western Influence"
Just a recent reaction to the West huh? How about the East, North and South, and every continent on earth with the exception of Antarctica. How about 1400 years of uninterrupted war against their fellow Muslims, then Kurds, Hindus, Sikhs, Bahá'í, and Buddhist How about 1400 years of uninterrupted Slavery that exists to this day. The West is responsible for Radical Islam right.
Well, perhaps I worded that poorly. Radical ideas generally exist indefinitely. Radical Islam has always existed, as has radical Christianity or antisemitism. There are still people who think in an unenlightened way, and antisemitism ran rampant in Germany long before Hitler took power, just as Radical Islam has always been active. It's especially influential right now due to Western influence.
It would be asinine to think it will ever go away completely. I mean, there are still people who think evolution is a lie from Satan and that fossils were placed there to test us. Outdated and idiotic thinking doesn't go away very quickly, sometimes at all, especially when it's tied to something like religion. Islam has some bias against other religions, as is the case with all religions. A huge portion of the time, Christians commentating on Islam usually involves an insult about worshiping the wrong myth, even when it's secular Christians doing the talking. The idea that a man could travel from Mecca to Jerusalem in a single night is absurd, but the idea of a man walking across water isn't. From an unbiased spectator, that is beyond idiotic, but it happens all the time.
Hamas wasn't in political control for centuries though. Jews existed along side the Palestinians for a while, and there was minimal conflict. To accuse Islam of being in constant warfare is a little insane to me as constant warfare isn't really an exclusive trait of Islam, or even of religion. Secular wars, like WWII or the American Civil War were far bloodier than wars like the Crusades, which is likely more a result of technological development, but my point still stands.
Look at Iran. The Iranian revolution has the rebels backed by the US. Those rebels are what lead to the Islamic government. ISIS didn't really exist under Saddam because there was no need. The US takes out Saddam, and ISIS is able to thrive. It's not that the mentality of ISIS didn't exist under Saddam; it did. But it didn't have a need. But the Us effectively destabilized a relatively moderate country, and all hell breaks lose due to the failures of two presidents with some of the most disastrous foreign policies even possible. Neville Chamberlain wasn't even that stupid.
Radical Islam did exist, but it's a hyper conservative reaction to outside influences. It's always been there and it does what it can, but recent events have made it more influential as a result of western action.
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