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Old 12-01-2015, 05:56 PM
 
Location: Barrington
63,919 posts, read 46,615,875 times
Reputation: 20674

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Quote:
Originally Posted by juneaubound View Post
That's true. But that isn't:

1. What gets attention in the media

2. What fits the narrative for conservatives who are determined to prove that all college students are money grubbing whiners who do nothing more than attend institutions of progressive indoctrination AND liberals determined to minimize the opinion of conservatives by calling them all redneck, xenophobic educayshun-haters

3. Important in the grand scheme of CD arguments where every college student is a delicate cupcake, every cop is a jack booted, racist thug with a gun, every poor person is a lobster eating welfare queen or drug peddling gang banger, every conservative is a gun hugging bible thumper etc etc.

Those who make the most noise get the most attention. Black Lives Matter, SJW college students et al have been shrieking at dog whistle pitch for a good while now. The grown-ups in the room have been shrinking from their responsibility to act like the grown-ups in the room, and the kiddies have been running amok. And now here we are.


Agreed.

Social media was a game changer and made everyone a celebrity in their own minds.
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Old 12-01-2015, 07:33 PM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,318,841 times
Reputation: 22904
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
I appreciate your perspective on this matter. I respect your opinion.

I just feel (again...raised Catholic so keep the stereotype in mind) that doctrine and rigid conformity are not only a barrier to growth (spiritual, intellectual) for young people but often a means of promoting a self-serving interest for those in a position of power.

And I'm not opposed to what he's saying in a general or societal sense. But this was a situation where we basically had a teacher (ok president but a power position) failed to use a student's issue to that student's advantage.

It just seems to me that instead of writing a diatribe about the overall/general moral to this story in an abstract sense for a wide audience it would have been nice for him to focus the kid on where he went astray. Whether he uses compassion or a butt kicking to get that point across is not my concern. I'd like to know what he said to the kid and more importantly how he reacted.

It seems to me hypocrisy and megalomania stood in Piper's way of relaying that story.
Understood. Dr. Piper could have handled it differently, but I'm on board with his frustration. What is happening on college campuses right now -- even, apparently, super-conservative religious institutions, which I honestly did not see coming -- is something I talk about with my teens all the time. Some of their friends (not all) are prone to this kind of nonsense. It's a pseudo-victimhood that minimizes the struggles of truly oppressed individuals & communities. A crippling self-focus that stands in the way of emotional maturity. Chronic navel gazing if you will. I'm actually at a loss to wrap words around it, because I find it so utterly confusing, particularly coming from young people with tremendous gifts to offer the world, who may have faced a few challenges but certainly no insurmountable hurdles. It infuriates me, and I suspect that Dr. Piper sympathizes with that reaction, as do a lot of others.

Last edited by randomparent; 12-01-2015 at 07:54 PM..
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:35 PM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,318,841 times
Reputation: 22904
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBeam33 View Post
Oklahoma Wesleyan is also a private, evangelical Christian university where - I will hazard a guess - there aren't a lot of liberals in attendance.

I think maybe Dr. Piper is a little sensitive, considering the student didn't like his homily but, apparently, didn't use any of the terms that Dr. Piper goes on in his letter to complain about. Maybe Dr. Piper, being a minister, should spend more time listening and less time complaining.
It was not Dr. Piper but rather the Vice President of Student Development, Kyle White, who gave the sermon during weekly chapel. Dr. Piper reviewed the sermon after the student complained and found nothing controversial that would have warranted the complaint. I've looked for an on-line copy of the sermon, but it does not appear to be available.

Last edited by randomparent; 12-01-2015 at 08:50 PM..
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Old 12-01-2015, 08:44 PM
 
Location: exit 0
5,307 posts, read 4,395,554 times
Reputation: 7033
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
Understood. Dr. Piper could have handled it differently, but I'm on board with his frustration. What is happening on college campuses right now -- even, apparently, super-conservative religious institutions, which I honestly did not see coming -- is something I talk about with my teens all the time. Some of their friends (not all) are prone to this kind of nonsense. It's a pseudo-victimhood that minimizes the struggles of truly oppressed individuals & communities. A crippling self-focus that stands in the way of emotional maturity. Chronic navel gazing if you will. I'm actually at a loss to wrap words around it, because I find it so utterly confusing, particularly coming from young people with tremendous gifts to offer the world, who may have faced a few challenges but certainly no insurmountable hurdles. It infuriates me, and I suspect that Dr. Piper sympathizes with that reaction, as do a lot of others.
I agree with what you are saying here.

As a former high school teacher, I began to see signs of this about 10 years ago. Of course at the time I had no idea that it would become such a blight on our society.

Having grown up with the old "sticks and stones may break my bones but, names will never hurt me" adage, I took it to heart. Now, we all know that it isn't entirely true. What people say can, and does have an impact on our future self-esteem. Quite often those affected don't know the root of some of their troubles but, I would venture to say that often, therein lies the answer. BUT, there are a great many things that go into a person's view of them self. Usually, it is what takes place in one's own family is the real crux of the matter. If there is a strong, positive support familial system events that happen outside the family can be little more than a life event that taught a lesson. However, if there is not a strong system in place the bullied become the bullies.

Too many young people are being allowed to not experience the consequences of their action and that gives way to some feeling that they are entitled to be aggressive in their speech and/or actions. Others begin to feel that they must protect those around them which, I believe, does a great disservice to every one involved. The ones that see themselves as the protectors tend to see themselves as an Alpha, a God complex, if you will. Those that see themselves as victims often seek the approval and affirmation of others and when they don't get it they don't trust themselves to make good choices. When they are victims they are not held accountable for their own future actions.

“It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are.” ~e.e. cummings

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.” ~Friedrich Nietzsche

"Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced." ~Soren Kierkegaard

"Trouble is the common denominator of living. It is the great equalizer." ~Soren Kierkegaard

"Shut up, grow up and, get over it." ~ibginnie
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Old 12-01-2015, 09:28 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
36,856 posts, read 17,308,412 times
Reputation: 14459
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
Understood. Dr. Piper could have handled it differently, but I'm on board with his frustration. What is happening on college campuses right now -- even, apparently, super-conservative religious institutions, which I honestly did not see coming -- is something I talk about with my teens all the time. Some of their friends (not all) are prone to this kind of nonsense. It's a pseudo-victimhood that minimizes the struggles of truly oppressed individuals & communities. A crippling self-focus that stands in the way of emotional maturity. Chronic navel gazing if you will. I'm actually at a loss to wrap words around it, because I find it so utterly confusing, particularly coming from young people with tremendous gifts to offer the world, who may have faced a few challenges but certainly no insurmountable hurdles. It infuriates me, and I suspect that Dr. Piper sympathizes with that reaction, as do a lot of others.
I agree with your premise here and would say one major issue facing kids today that wasn't there when I was growing up (Gen X) is the opportunity to pass/fail life's endeavors in a relatively open society. Obviously within the paradigm of a reasonable safety net. Lumps, bumps, and scars were fine...but permanent extensive damage/death were protected against.

I don't have the answer. You would know better than me that giving kids this pass/fail landscape is increasingly difficult/next to impossible within the confines of society and her institutions. I don't have kids.

I know good parents though that struggle with this reality. Every move your kid makes is tweeted, downloaded, recorded, and analyzed. With that scrutiny, and the real need to protect your kid from getting tripped up in this world, we sort of lost the space to let a lot of stuff merely play out.

That would be my beef here: being that Piper has the power and resources to challenge this kid with a reasonable safety net he could have provided a more meaningful way to get his message across. That's why I'm so intent on knowing what he said to the kid.

You can't just say sermons are meant to induce guilt and leave it there. That does nothing for the kid moving forward.
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Old 12-02-2015, 01:45 AM
 
Location: Illinois
4,751 posts, read 5,423,471 times
Reputation: 12999
Quote:
Originally Posted by randomparent View Post
It was not Dr. Piper but rather the Vice President of Student Development, Kyle White, who gave the sermon during weekly chapel. Dr. Piper reviewed the sermon after the student complained and found nothing controversial that would have warranted the complaint. I've looked for an on-line copy of the sermon, but it does not appear to be available.
My answer is still: Ministers should spend more time listening and less time complaining.
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Old 12-02-2015, 02:00 AM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,001 posts, read 35,102,216 times
Reputation: 7875
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibginnie View Post
I agree with what you are saying here.

As a former high school teacher, I began to see signs of this about 10 years ago. Of course at the time I had no idea that it would become such a blight on our society.

Having grown up with the old "sticks and stones may break my bones but, names will never hurt me" adage, I took it to heart. Now, we all know that it isn't entirely true. What people say can, and does have an impact on our future self-esteem. Quite often those affected don't know the root of some of their troubles but, I would venture to say that often, therein lies the answer. BUT, there are a great many things that go into a person's view of them self. Usually, it is what takes place in one's own family is the real crux of the matter. If there is a strong, positive support familial system events that happen outside the family can be little more than a life event that taught a lesson. However, if there is not a strong system in place the bullied become the bullies.

Too many young people are being allowed to not experience the consequences of their action and that gives way to some feeling that they are entitled to be aggressive in their speech and/or actions. Others begin to feel that they must protect those around them which, I believe, does a great disservice to every one involved. The ones that see themselves as the protectors tend to see themselves as an Alpha, a God complex, if you will. Those that see themselves as victims often seek the approval and affirmation of others and when they don't get it they don't trust themselves to make good choices. When they are victims they are not held accountable for their own future actions.

“It takes courage to grow up and become who you really are.” ~e.e. cummings

"That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.” ~Friedrich Nietzsche

"Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced." ~Soren Kierkegaard

"Trouble is the common denominator of living. It is the great equalizer." ~Soren Kierkegaard

"Shut up, grow up and, get over it." ~ibginnie
I disagree, social media has made things almost instant and sometimes national news. The woman who duct taped her dog's mouth was just a Facebook post that went viral, now she is facing charges for something that no one would have known about if she hadn't put it on the internet.

Younger generations are learning the instant affects of their actions because of technology.
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Old 12-02-2015, 04:43 AM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
78,866 posts, read 46,512,309 times
Reputation: 18520
Quote:
Originally Posted by petch751 View Post
This past week, I actually had a student come forward after a university chapel service and complain because he felt “victimized” by a sermon on the topic of 1 Corinthians 13. It appears that this young scholar felt offended because a homily on love made him feel bad for not showing love. In his mind, the speaker was wrong for making him, and his peers, feel uncomfortable.

An open letter to the students written by -- Dr. Everett Piper, President where he said...

Our culture has actually taught our kids to be this self-absorbed and narcissistic. Any time their feelings are hurt, they are the victims. Anyone who dares challenge them and, thus, makes them “feel bad” about themselves, is a “hater,” a “bigot,” an “oppressor,” and a “victimizer.”

This is Not a Day Care. It’s a University!

This is Not a Day Care. It's a University! - Oklahoma Wesleyan University


Hard to argue with the truth.
We need more like this man, in education at all levels.



"This University, may not be for you"
Love it!
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:37 AM
 
Location: The analog world
17,077 posts, read 13,318,841 times
Reputation: 22904
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBeam33 View Post
My answer is still: Ministers should spend more time listening and less time complaining.
I think you are confusing therapy with ministry. The Bible is full of smack-downs. Public ones! Remember that the Epistles were read aloud before communities of early Christians. Some of those letters were kind and encouraging. Others not so much. Here's Paul, addressing the Galatians:

Quote:
You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly exhibited as crucified! The only thing I want to learn from you is this: Did you receive the Spirit by doing works of the law or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? Having started with the Spirit, are you now ending with the flesh? Did you experience so much for nothing -- if it really was for nothing. Well then, does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by you doing the works of the law, or by you believing what you heard? (NSRV, 3 Galatians 1-5)
The only issue I see -- and it's a biggie -- is that the rebuke from Piper spread beyond the community to which he was preaching. There's no reason that any of us outside OKWU should be aware of what happened. And that I do agree is a problem.

Last edited by randomparent; 12-02-2015 at 09:53 AM..
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Old 12-02-2015, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Great State of Texas
86,052 posts, read 84,329,907 times
Reputation: 27718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibginnie View Post
I agree with what you are saying here.

As a former high school teacher, I began to see signs of this about 10 years ago. Of course at the time I had no idea that it would become such a blight on our society.
I agree. And over time it's gotten worse and worse. Now these protected kids have moved from K-12 into college..an unprotected area.

And they cannot deal with it.

And each succeeding generation is going to be worse as K-12 keeps lowering that bar.

Everyone is not a winner and everyone is not equal.
These kids came from the K-12 environment where nothing bad can be said.
"Use your words" and "Tell an adult". Never let them handle it themselves.

And now they want the same in college.
What happens when this cohort graduates and goes into the workplace ?
Business is a dog eat dog environment. You're not going to get a paycheck for just "showing up".
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