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View Poll Results: Which is more unconstitutional?
option 1 114 83.21%
option 2 23 16.79%
Voters: 137. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 12-15-2015, 07:30 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Sorry, but you've missed the point.
No, you did. The First Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights, which SCOTUS specifically ruled doesn't apply to "aliens seeking admission for the first time to these shores."
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:42 AM
 
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There are some that believe the constitution covers everybody in the world no matter what country they live in
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:58 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
Freedom of Religion applies to Americans. When the American government passes a law discriminating against a religion, that affects us all. And therefore, it is prohibited by the Constitution of the United States.
It would indeed be unConstitutional to limit/prohibit a U.S. citizen's right to immigrate to the U.S. based on religious identification. Let us know when that happens.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:41 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
And lawsuits can be filed when our government violates the Constitution of the United States.
They can be "filed," but SCOTUS has repeatedly denied hearings (in recent history) with the excuse that U.S. citizens do not have the standing to ensure that the Constitution is upheld.

SCOTUS in doing so has set a VERY dangerous precedent.
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Old 12-15-2015, 08:52 AM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
The US government must abide by the US Constitution.
Oh, please. The US Government is already violating at least (if not more) the First, Second, and Sixth Amendments: e.g., publicly speaking critically of Muslims, gun controls/bans, and the No Fly list that is compiled without due process.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:54 AM
 
33,387 posts, read 34,633,484 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
And they shouldn't even get those unless they are U.S. citizens.
i disagree, as long as they are in this country, then constitutional protections apply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
Because the constitution says, "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of religion." Thus, passing a law that bars people from entering the country by virtue of their religion violates the constitution.
it actually says congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof. and since islam has already been established in this country as a religion, there is no prohibition of religion in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy View Post
Oh, please, Mr. Burdell! Aren't you smarter than that?

The First Amendment refers to the rights of citizens. The entire Constitution applies to the United States and its citizens.

Congress establishes immigration policy, and immigration is based on the benefit to American society, which may include consideration of the applicants religion (as it always has).
exactly right to a point. the constitution applies to everyone IN the country, citizen or not. but as you and i, and others, have noted, it does not apply to those not yet in this country.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
Wrong. There is no requirement that anyone denied immigration to the U.S. has to stop the free practice of their religion in their current country of residence.
There is no requirement that you have to stop the free practice of your religion in your residence, so I guess it's fine for the government to ban all religious activity outside of private residences.

Either the First Amendment limits government's power or it is meaningless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MTAtech View Post
Thank you for you in-depth analysis. I contend that your conclusion is the fallacious one.

The Constitution only applies to citizens in the sections that say that the specific right only applies to citizens. In many sections, it specifically states "people" and "persons" which includes all persons. As an example, a foreigner held for a crime is entitled to all the protections of a citizen. They must be read their rights and they are entitled to a jury trial and represented by an attorney.

However, that is irrelevant to the First Amendment, which specifically states, "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of religion." The First Amendment does NOT say, "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of religion [except Congress can abridge the freedoms of non-citizens.]" "Make no law," is quite absolute.
Agreed. So much agreed. There are three uses of the term citizen in the Constitution. Once to define the requirements to be eligible for the Presidency, and twice in the context of defining natural-born citizenship in the 14th Amendment.

There is a color-able (though I would say wrong) argument that "the People" in the context of the Constitution means something like "people governed by the Constitution." But that, too, has no bearing on the First Amendment, which you rightly point out restricts Congress, quite clearly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
That door was opened LONG ago by liberal bigots and their denigration of religious Americans exercising their First Amendment Rights, so don't be so surprised that what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

That said, exactly what is wrong with limiting/prohibiting the immigration of those who are members of a group that believes in killing non-Muslims (until "religion is for Allah" - Quran 2:191-193) and gays?
First, 1.5 billion Muslims are not "a group that believes in killing non-Muslims and gays." Second, it violates the 1st Amendment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy View Post
Not quite. The Constitution establishes what powers each branch of Government has, and then further defines those powers.
And it also provides express limits on those powers in Amendments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nononsenseguy View Post
Oh, please, Mr. Burdell! Aren't you smarter than that?

The First Amendment refers to the rights of citizens. The entire Constitution applies to the United States and its citizens.

Congress establishes immigration policy, and immigration is based on the benefit to American society, which may include consideration of the applicants religion (as it always has).
The First says nothing about citizens. The Constitution creates a government, defines its powers, and places limits on them. Congress has never--NEVER--restricted immigration on the basis of religion. When Congress creates immigration law, it must act within its powers and within the limits of those powers. Free Exercise of religion is one of those limits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dechatelet View Post
Wrong.

I see we have another sophist here.

Our constitution only applies to citizens and people who are present in this country.
Where does the Constitution say that? Structurally, it forms a government, gives it certain powers, and then places certain restrictions upon that government's powers--including the restriction that Congress shall not prohibit the Free Exercise of religion.
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Old 12-15-2015, 12:55 PM
 
3,570 posts, read 2,501,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InformedConsent View Post
No, you did. The First Amendment is part of the Bill of Rights, which SCOTUS specifically ruled doesn't apply to "aliens seeking admission for the first time to these shores."
If you think the Supreme Court would uphold a religious test for admission, then I have a bridge to sell you. The precedent you are referring to is: 1) not actually precedent, but dicta, 2) thin and unpersuasive, and 3) troubling and unreliable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brownbagg View Post
There are some that believe the constitution covers everybody in the world no matter what country they live in
There are some that believe the Constitution places limits on government action, and that immigration law is government action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
it actually says congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof. and since islam has already been established in this country as a religion, there is no prohibition of religion in this case.
You misunderstand the Establishment/Free Exercise clauses. These are two separate protections: 1) the Establishment Clause essentially means that there shall not be a State Religion, and 2) the Free Exercise Clause requires that government not restrict religious activity.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:48 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,554 posts, read 44,278,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityTheBridge View Post
There is no requirement that you have to stop the free practice of your religion in your residence, so I guess it's fine for the government to ban all religious activity outside of private residences.
You know you're being dishonest. There's a BIG difference between country of residence and one's private residence.

Given that you had to resort to a fallacy, I'll take it you know you're wrong and can't legitimately defend your assertion.

Quote:
First, 1.5 billion Muslims are not "a group that believes in killing non-Muslims and gays."
You might want to learn more about Islam. Maalik, al-Shaafi'i, Ahmad and Ishaaq all stated that the person guilty of the crime of sodomy should be stoned, whether he is married or unmarried.

Quote:
Second, it violates the 1st Amendment.
Nope. The U.S. Government is not prohibiting their exercising of their religion in denied immigration applicants' home countries.
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Old 12-15-2015, 01:50 PM
 
Location: the very edge of the continent
88,554 posts, read 44,278,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brownbagg View Post
There are some that believe the constitution covers everybody in the world no matter what country they live in
How very dumbed-down the people of this country have become.
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